The high price of vintage knockoffs

[tapper mike]

So this comes up in an ad recently that hid the details of the instrument.
https://reverb.com/item/67220895-greco- ... TyWKnpN3YQ

Oh wow a fujigen that's been through hell and back going for $1,349
Yeah had one of those and a Magnum that oddly sounded and played better back in the 70's and 80s for dirt cheap.

Meanwhile used LP types like Harley Benton's

$315 used

Sire Larry Carlton L7

$600 new

[lfm]

I don't consider a Japanese made guitar knockoff. They always were regarded as close to Gibson.
- looked closey at Greco, Edwards, Tokai when I was in the market for an LP
- and those that made the guitar had decent pay still

Would Harley Benton pass as Fair Trade marked?
- can those doing the work make a living on that pay?
- or how many jobs do they need?

Those are things I believe we need to re-evaluate these days.

If I were in the market for a LP today, I would consider the Greco.
- the Gibson I have cost double that today

I'm not a saint, but I try to think about these things more and more.

I started with a Korea Epiphone and pimped that in every way to a Gibson
- but it still did not have the tone on my LP standard
- you hear it playing acoustically to how guitar resonates

and I would say the Harley Benton LP does not stand the test of the Greco either.
- playing hi gain sound you would not notice
- playing blues to lighter crunch tone you would notice

I have a Squier Tele, but it does not compare to american Tele I have.
- Squier great guitar but the tone does not match american made
- same thing, playing acoustically is enough to destinguish

I had a thread a couple of years ago trying to have discussion over what makes and american made sounding better.
- was it the neck, choice of wood for neck or similar
- was wood more slowly growing making annual rings closer
- some knowhow that original american guitars have
- Martin, Taylor american made, Gibson and Fender
- they are not just more expensive for salaries paid
- it's better products too

People weren't that interested.

[Bombadil]

If I were a beginner, I might start with a HB guitar. Might. Their ES-335 copy has gotten great reviews, but it will always be a 'good guitar for the money' guitar.
Which can basically mean anything.
Thomann is having a sale now on some HB guitars. I'd grab one to try, but I have enough guitars, and a HB will never stand up to what I have.
I, too, think about the real cost of cheap instruments.

[tapper mike]

For guitarists it's the best of times and it's the worst of times. Same could be said for manufacturers.

We live in an era of wide selection well built guitars for everyone from the lower income beginner to the pricey advanced for the seasoned play with money to burn.

Benedetto is the first name in jazz boxes. A staff of 20 ppl building hand carved guitar for a lot of money are doing just fine even though they only produce maybe 120 guitars a year.

Shy of winning the lottery big I'll never own one of these.

We'll never go back to Kalamazoo.
Gibson could have built a new factory large enough to handle it's demand in Kalamazoo. Instead it was a move to force the union out plain and simple. The result of the shift to Tennessee produced the worst made US Gibsons for many years thereafter (though it did improve in the decade that followed) Heritage was doing pretty good till the last of the original owner/operaters decided to sell it. And it was a dog and pony show first, manufacturer second. Though they were able to address fatal flaws that Gibson guitars had previously. Yes I have a Chinese made Epiphone Joe Pass guitar. It's extremely well built but lacks the tonal character of the Korean built ones due to redesign.

Fender was an insignificant part of CBS, it was owned through AMF (sporting supplies) Any changes were handed from the top down CBS>AMF>Fender. Fender management and employees felt insignificant and between cost cutting maneuvers as well as other factors the work force were just clock punchers. 70's fenders weren't that great. If you had a good one it was because you had a tech fixing it up. They were so bad that under FMIC fender shut down US operations for a few years and shipped off to japan. If anything this is when greater interest in off shore manufacturing began. That and not having the capital to

I loved my 90's Strat Plus and you know what. I could get that same guitar anywhere in the US. It wasn't like a Gibson where if you lined up 10 they'd all play and feel different. I also liked that it wasn't looked down upon. I liked Samick guitars because they were well built and affordable. But when you work/live in Detroit the audience was very nationalistic with regards to manufacturers even when the quality wasn't there.

My CIC Fender Modern Player Telecaster is the best Tele or Tele style I've ever laid my hands on. Yes I know that many were crap. Yes the pups had to be replaced. I can't compare Ultra-Luxe but I can compare every Fender Tele I've ever played from 50's through 2k. That doesn't mean I'm still not interested in a Sire LC which may look similar to a tele but really is a different animal


With regards to "Real Production Cost" Maybe that belongs in HPC and it deals with several factors including world politics, econmics and environment.

[vurt]

kalamazoo is a place? wtf!?

[Bombadil]

I know one thing for sure: if I hadn't been introduced to a real luthier a couple of years after I got here, I wouldn't have so many guitars.
For one thing, I suppose it is a golden age. Not many people fantasized about a room full of guitars when I started. But now, people with 3+ guitars are ubiquitous.
I knew a guy when I was around 17. he had a room full of guitars. I expect, as he was a dope dealer,nthat some where hot and some were 'pawned' for dope.
Now, it's not too hard to get a collection going. Some of my gits are Chinese. They're very good guitars.

[guitarzan]

kalamazoo is a place? wtf!?

Not only were Gibson guitars originally from Kalamazoo Michigan, but the Pro Co Rat pedal also originated in Kalamazoo.

GHS Strings (Boomers, etc) are manufactured about 25 miles from Kalamazoo, in Battle Creek Michigan.

A little farther from Kalamazoo (about 70 miles) but still in Southwestern Michigan, Electro-Voice was manufactured in Buchanan (speakers, microphones, etc).

Michigan has always been kind of guitar heavy, but small local shops are getting a lot rarer now.

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

Counterpoint: I'd rather have an $600 Les Paul copy with decent quality control compared to a $3,500 Gibson Les Paul that plays like crap.

[Bombadil]

I had one, a cheaper, all hog 2x P-90s, but couldn't get the action where I'm used to. Had it setup, actually worse. Then did a refret. Problem still there. Maybe uneven wood, I dunno. I took about a 50% loss when I sold it.
I currently have a Stanford Marquee with SD 59'S in it. Absolutely great guitar.

[neverbefore]

I have an old G&L which is a strat knockoff but made by the people who made the original
old G&Ls are real bargains I think - mine plays beautifully and has a great sound

[Bombadil]

I looked at G&L before they had Asian models, and before I had the cash to spend. Great guitars.
American Hamers were also da bomb.

[tapper mike]

I know one thing for sure: if I hadn't been introduced to a real luthier a couple of years after I got here, I wouldn't have so many guitars.
For one thing, I suppose it is a golden age. Not many people fantasized about a room full of guitars when I started. But now, people with 3+ guitars are ubiquitous.
I knew a guy when I was around 17. he had a room full of guitars. I expect, as he was a dope dealer,nthat some where hot and some were 'pawned' for dope.
Now, it's not too hard to get a collection going. Some of my gits are Chinese. They're very good guitars.

As soon as I got clean and my own place I learned this really weird thing from a girlfriend.
She had these envelops with words and amounts on them. She would cash her check and then divide money between them. She called it saving.

So I tried it. Instead of Rainy Day I put Next Guitar on one of the envelops. If I needed it for a rainy day that was fine. But if I got up to my amount I'd buy a new guitar. Sometimes I'd wait six months and others a year. Unlike drugs and alcohol guitars were something of lasting value. Even though that value would diminish over time it was still something I could show off/play or trade when getting the next one.

The other thing that really bonded me to having more than one guitar was... friendship. When I'd go to a friends place they would have a guitar for me to play. If they came to mine I'd have one ready for them. None were Gibsons or Fenders.

Not that I entertain at home these days but there was quite a long spell when I did. I'd often have little sit-ins, jam nites or intimate gatherings. When someone would comment on my collection it would be show and tell time. I'd talk a little about the guitar and then play a song that best exemplified its unique sound. Talk, play two or three songs, move on to the next.
My Samick Fastback is still my LP standard of choice. Unless someone makes something resembling the tone of a custom (mahogany top) I won't be buying an LP type anytime soon.


My next guitar will be a Sire S7FM I'm not playing guitar as much as I used to. I know that having it may cause me to play a bit more during the honeymoon and that in time it will level out. Most of my playing time is devoted to the linnstrument. The struggle is real. I'm still better on keys than the linnstrument but I'm getting there and I'm obsessed with the possibilities.

[tapper mike]

I always felt that G&L's were made for giants. As for Leo's other company which was later sold to Ernie Ball (Music Man) I could not get past the aesthetics Today I learned the whole "health thing" that I'd been lead to believe all my adult life was a crap story.

[Uncle E]

A Gibson Traditional is one of the best Les Paul's you'll ever play and can be bought second hand for only a little more than that Greco. BUT, it comes with HUGE caveats:

Has to be a Traditional, NOT a Traditional Pro (and they're not easy to tell apart)
Has to be 2013 or later (earlier will be chambered)
A 2015 is the easiest to identify but it also has the most obnoxiously large neck of any Gibson I've played, including ones from the 50's

[tapper mike]

A 2015 is the easiest to identify but it also has the most obnoxiously large neck of any Gibson I've played, including ones from the 50's

A funny thing about 50's Les Paul guitars.... They had B stock back then too.
I had one, Doc Watson Famous Blind Guitarist also had a B stock 50's LP. He also loved the tone of Martins but hated how hard it was to play.
https://www.npr.org/2023/02/27/11597244 ... doc-watson