Vintage is overrated. Lesson learned(rant)

[zerocrossing]

What's wrong with MOTU converters? I've got an 828 that sounds good. I spent a little time a/b testing similar units in that range when I bought it and I didn't find any to stand out as being better and a few were a lot more expensive. I hate Moby's music but at least it sounds good. My only gripe with him is he seems to think one interesting idea makes a whole track.

Anyway, you could probably end this debate by posting an actual sample of your music made with your great sounding analog gear, but you won't so I guess your music is so special sounding that only you get to hear it.

If an analog synth filter self resonates in Living Sounds' studio, does it make a sound.

Motu is OK in their price range, but I'd expect an artist of his fame with all the analog equipment to invest a little more in better sounding converters. Sound quality wise Moby isn't really cutting edge IMO. Like some of his music though, like this track (fairly new but very retro):



Posting my own stuff isn't likely to end any debate, but anyway, here's a track I made like two weeks ago (checking out the Sync-Lock, I think). I've upgraded the console some more since, lot's more clarity now, but this shows quite well what half an hour of jamming (and then simply muting midi tracks on and off in real time) sounds like. Never mind the glitches, the external converter wasn't synced properly (not too audible though). And yes, it sounds like a porn soundtrack.

I don’t know why KVR decided to notify me of this reply at this time, but I think it’s an interesting opportunity to revisit this topic, because living sounds was sort of the beginning of my move from a mostly plugin based workflow to a hybrid one. A lot has changed since 2010.

Starting off, I’ll say that the closest thing to a vintage synth I’ve purchased since this thread is a GEM S2, and that is only for its keybed. (PolyAT) It’s in a case right now because I had a minor repair a few years ago (bad traces on a board) that left me without it for 3 months, and now that I’m doing this for a living I can’t be without a controller, so it’s become my backup. Hydrasynth Deluxe is now my main controller. I basically don’t know what the S2 even sounds like, as I only checked it once to make sure it was working. It’s a ROMpler and I’m not really that interested in that type of sound. Not anymore.

But I did buy a lot of modern hardware synthesizers, that I guess have various levels of “vintage” style tone, including the suggested Studio Electronics ATC-1, which turned into an ATC-X, which I still own. I love that synth, but it’s actually for sale at the moment because I also have a MFB Dominion 1, which I feel sounds as good (and surprisingly identical in some cases) and does a bit more. So, no reason other than I have a lot of overlap and something needs to go. I never bought any actual vintage analog, though. It wouldn’t work for me. I have come to rely too much on modern features like velocity and aftertouch sensitivity, and that basically rules out a vintage synthesizer.

People will disagree with me, but I feel there are a lot of modern synths that embody what we consider “vintage tone.” My Dominion 1, ATC-X and Melbourne Instruments Nina all can produce sounds that I consider vintage, or at least as vintage as I feel I need in my life. I’d include my Prophet 6, but the resonance compensation sort of ruins the vintage vibe, as no Prophet 5 had that design.

I could easily swap out the 6 for the 4 r4, or even the 10 r 4, but in all the comparison videos that I’ve seen, I end up choosing the 6 for most of the sounds. Even over the OG 5 r2 or 3. So, I don’t think that for me a pure vintage tone is always the best choice. It’s a flavor. I like that flavor, but I don’t feel it has a qualitative vector for me. No more than “garlic” is better or worse than “onion.”

Also, plugin development has exploded in this sector. I used to GAS for a Prophet VS until I heard Charlie Clouser’s (formerly of NIN) a/b demo of his VS and Arturia’s emulation, and I couldn’t hear a difference at all. Neither could he. One reason I loved the ATC-X so much was the Model D oscillator clones running into Moog, ARP, SEM and 303 filters. It gives a big variety of tones (Analog Tone Chameleon) but now I can get a lot of variety using Softube, U-He, GForce, Synapse and other great plugins. Gone are the crappy, dull, lifeless early Arturia plugins, or the aliasing early GForce emulations. Well, except for the ones that haven’t been updated. There’s still a ARP 2600 shaped hole in the plugin market. Now that my music and sound design need to work in the context of a game production process, having a plugin is super important, and I feel like any difference between the better modern emulations and the originals is so slight that it’s not relevant.

Also, we now have Uli Behringer hard at work pilfering the synthesizer designs of the past. I know people will disagree about how close they are to the originals, but to me it doesn’t matter. They sound great to me. But they mostly suffer from the sins of the originals, and are too simple for me to use. I’d love to pick up their 2600, but patch cables are not for me. I’ve tried that route and I hate it. The only time I want to use physical CV cables is when I control my Roland Torcido from my Dominion 1.

Modern synth plugins have come a long way too. Pigments, Modwave, Icarus, and Hive all get a lot of use around here. Anything they can do gets handled by MSoundFactory, Zebra or any number of amazing instruments. No need for modern digital hardware synths in my world.

So that’s where I see things. Clones and plugin emulations have really transformed things, and if you have the extra cash, there are some modern synths that really sound great as well.

[egbert101]

I can't complain too much. All these hardware clones and better software emulations are a dream come true for me. I just quickly lost interest in it all, as the vintage sound became a mass market product that everyone can own, so nothing special any more. The really good news is that there's a lot of really great new music out there (and not so great).

[vurt]

you can say the same thing about christmas.

[zerocrossing]

I can't complain too much. All these hardware clones and better software emulations are a dream come true for me. I just quickly lost interest in it all, as the vintage sound became a mass market product that everyone can own, so nothing special any more. The really good news is that there's a lot of really great new music out there (and not so great).

As someone who’s spent most of his life being pretty poor, I’m always in favor of losing “special” in favor of “available.” I worked a bunch of retail music store jobs and it always sucked to have the wealthy customer come in and plunk cash down for the gear that you’d been coveting. Even with the sometimes generous employee discount, the pay was always so low that most of the really good stuff was unattainable. My first synth was a quarter of a Juno 106, because even with my discount, it took me and three of my friends to gather the funds for it. My first job in the actual music industry was for an artist who owned a Synclavier II, which seemed to me like owning a private jet. Now its emulation is cheap, and even cheaper if you buy it as part of a bundle with a bunch of other great emulations. I think that’s awesome.

[kmonkey]

As someone who’s spent most of his life being pretty poor, I’m always in favor of losing “special” in favor of “available.” I worked a bunch of retail music store jobs and it always sucked to have the wealthy customer come in and plunk cash down for the gear that you’d been coveting. Even with the sometimes generous employee discount, the pay was always so low that most of the really good stuff was unattainable.

Uh, I was reading this and genuinely felt rough and bitter thinking about being in a similar situation.

Like a kid in a candy store where everyone is eating and you are not allowed to.

[Constructed Identity]

Vintage is overrated because we can easily find old music that uses the old gear.
Most people just starting out will want to copy what they've heard and will then look at gear used in classic recordings:

Personally I'm ambivalent about vintage gear or clones. Gear is gear and to each their own; whatever floats your boat. I prefer new things with new features and new sounds, but I love that vintage sound.

[zerocrossing]

As someone who’s spent most of his life being pretty poor, I’m always in favor of losing “special” in favor of “available.” I worked a bunch of retail music store jobs and it always sucked to have the wealthy customer come in and plunk cash down for the gear that you’d been coveting. Even with the sometimes generous employee discount, the pay was always so low that most of the really good stuff was unattainable.

Uh, I was reading this and genuinely felt rough and bitter thinking about being in a similar situation.

Like a kid in a candy store where everyone is eating and you are not allowed to.

Yeah, there were definitely moments like that. The worst one was in my first music store. Rondo Music in New Jersey. The owner offered me the job at minimum wage plus some percentage of my sales. I can't remember... I think it varied between 1-3% based on the type of thing sold. Anyway, after my first month, in which I was 3rd place in sales, I asked where my commission check was, and how that worked. The answer I got was, "you haven't taken the test yet." What test? The impossible to pass test that only one person had ever passed, and frankly I doubt they actually did. The test had ridiculous questions on it, like what was the bridge of a model guitar that no one had ever heard of, that the store didn't carry, or was even currently sold, made of. Basic bait and switch.

But, I saw it as a way to get hands on experience with gear in a way that I didn't at the school I went to, including the internship. No one was going to say, "hey Mark, it's not busy, why not just screw around with synths while you're waiting" at my internship, in fact, it was stated that I was not to touch anything unless asked to. So, in a sense, I got a lot out of that job, so I'm grateful, but yeah, it would have been nice to take something home every now and then.

[zerocrossing]

Vintage is overrated because we can easily find old music that uses the old gear.
Most people just starting out will want to copy what they've heard and will then look at gear used in classic recordings:

Personally I'm ambivalent about vintage gear or clones. Gear is gear and to each their own; whatever floats your boat. I prefer new things with new features and new sounds, but I love that vintage sound.

Yeah, that's my take on it too. If it sounds good to me, it's good. I don't really care if it ever made it on to a Duran Duran album.

[MadDogE134]

i AM vintage lol and many thank God there is only one of me

[JerGoertz]

Today's plugins get awfully close to the "vintage analog" sound I've always coveted, and I now have almost no desire to own the actual hardware units. Software truly does give you the best of both worlds.

[Uncle E]

Pro-800 hit the vintage synth market pretty hard. I imagine the Polysource will hit even harder, given that the Source was almost universally considered to be a great sounding synth (unlike the Prophet-600).

[jamcat]

Vintage is overrated because we can easily find old music that uses the old gear.
Most people just starting out will want to copy what they've heard and will then look at gear used in classic recordings:

Personally I'm ambivalent about vintage gear or clones. Gear is gear and to each their own; whatever floats your boat. I prefer new things with new features and new sounds, but I love that vintage sound.

Yeah, that's my take on it too. If it sounds good to me, it's good. I don't really care if it ever made it on to a Duran Duran album.

It really depends on which album.

[BertKoor]

vintage threads are overrated

[zerocrossing]

Vintage is overrated because we can easily find old music that uses the old gear.
Most people just starting out will want to copy what they've heard and will then look at gear used in classic recordings:

Personally I'm ambivalent about vintage gear or clones. Gear is gear and to each their own; whatever floats your boat. I prefer new things with new features and new sounds, but I love that vintage sound.

Yeah, that's my take on it too. If it sounds good to me, it's good. I don't really care if it ever made it on to a Duran Duran album.

It really depends on which album.

Don’t get wrong, I think Duran Duran is a fine pop group. I just don’t think that if you went back in time and replaced all the parts with modern instruments, even software, you’d end up with less great music.

I think what a lot of people forget is that people just use what’s available to them. Before the Jupiter 8, people used organs, string and horn sections, electric pianos, etc. People were excited to use new instruments. Some of us still are. Some complained that the new synthesizers were terrible compared to traditional instruments, just like people now complain that new synths are worse than old ones. This is the way.

Someone started a thread asking if Arturia’s CS-80 V was close to the original, and my question was, “why, are you trying to decide whether or not to buy the original or just go with the software?” There are already not enough vintage synths to fill the demand, which is why they fetch such high prices and make Uli Behringer a wealthy man with his clone army.

[pdxindy]

People will disagree with me, but I feel there are a lot of modern synths that embody what we consider “vintage tone.” My Dominion 1, ATC-X and Melbourne Instruments Nina all can produce sounds that I consider vintage, or at least as vintage as I feel I need in my life.

So you have a Nina on hand now?