Hi,
How would I strive to get this huge low end...it's off the charts...
What bass / kick combo ....should i be aiming for?
Do i need a specific synth/hardware??
tx if you can answer
Huge Low End...sub?
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- KVRian
- 1185 posts since 27 Apr, 2016
Likely to be either 909 or 808 on the kick. Not many upper harmonics in the bass line notes so difficult to be sure. Try a either a saw and a square wave blended and a low pass filter to achieve the tonality to start you off. It does not seem to have much filter movement so a static position will likely work.
I would have thought any VST can produce a saw/square each of 2 oscillators. It sounds quite warm. I would try with DIVA for that to start with, but only as I have it. Any subtractive synth would work I think.
Then it'll be judicious EQ on both.
It might sound a bit thicker in the lows than it was in reality due to top end wear on the vinyl.
03:21 you can hear it has a bit of a clicky attack on the bass notes. So consider oscillator start phase. You probably want both oscillators to be on retrigger start phase.
I would have thought any VST can produce a saw/square each of 2 oscillators. It sounds quite warm. I would try with DIVA for that to start with, but only as I have it. Any subtractive synth would work I think.
Then it'll be judicious EQ on both.
It might sound a bit thicker in the lows than it was in reality due to top end wear on the vinyl.
03:21 you can hear it has a bit of a clicky attack on the bass notes. So consider oscillator start phase. You probably want both oscillators to be on retrigger start phase.
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- KVRian
- 1185 posts since 27 Apr, 2016
Most of the deep lows are coming from the kick which overlaps a bass note/s in a pleasing way. So get your kick nice and round and deep.
The way I would start this is have that track in your DAW and set your tempo to the same tempo.. if off vinyl it might be 120.350 BPM or something so that won't be helpful. Get it as close as you can. Maybe cut a kick and bass loop out and time stretch it to fit 120bpm.
Program that bass line in your DAW with a INIT setting on any synth maybe with a low pass filter at 200Hz or so and probably no release, nice and short like the bass notes are.
Do this first with 1 synth and 1 oscillator that can continuously scroll smoothly through all the basic analogue wave forms (sine/square/saw/triangle, so a wavetable synth might be good (I think serum does this well but it would not be my choice 1 for bass personally speaking.). Then you may be able to hone in on what what waveform it is. It might be something in between saw and square for example and then just 1 oscillator will do.
If not then try a second oscillator blend.
It can be quite surprising how different synths can sound in the warmth area of the waveform relative to filter (assuming it is somewhere sensible for what is a bass line sound without much mids and highs in it) and bottom end output levels dependent on the cut off and probably the synth itself. It does not sound particularly resonant to me
but you could consider resonance on a the filter later on, I doubt it will help though...
all depends on how steep the filter is 6/12/18/24dB Oct.
That might be a good start to narrow it down. It is quite interesting hunting down a sound, it can be really difficult as well. Sometimes it blows your mind at how simple a sound is when you have gone all around the houses to find how it was made.
Then of course make your own bass line with the preset you end up making. Consider how the kick tail interacts with your own bass line and adjust the pitch accordingly so they sound good together in both pitch interaction, lengths and groove.
All this side chaining the bass from the kick is often a fudge, cause the fundamental kick and bass line sounds are not really working properly.
Good kick and bass in dance music is like a jigsaw puzzle. Get as much right at source before resorting to processing that may not be able to solve the real problems.
When it is sounding really good without it, you can maybe try to reinforce the groove slightly with side chaining bass just a little with the kick. That is not guaranteed though it might sound worse just as easily. So go very easy with it for this style of music.
The way I would start this is have that track in your DAW and set your tempo to the same tempo.. if off vinyl it might be 120.350 BPM or something so that won't be helpful. Get it as close as you can. Maybe cut a kick and bass loop out and time stretch it to fit 120bpm.
Program that bass line in your DAW with a INIT setting on any synth maybe with a low pass filter at 200Hz or so and probably no release, nice and short like the bass notes are.
Do this first with 1 synth and 1 oscillator that can continuously scroll smoothly through all the basic analogue wave forms (sine/square/saw/triangle, so a wavetable synth might be good (I think serum does this well but it would not be my choice 1 for bass personally speaking.). Then you may be able to hone in on what what waveform it is. It might be something in between saw and square for example and then just 1 oscillator will do.
If not then try a second oscillator blend.
It can be quite surprising how different synths can sound in the warmth area of the waveform relative to filter (assuming it is somewhere sensible for what is a bass line sound without much mids and highs in it) and bottom end output levels dependent on the cut off and probably the synth itself. It does not sound particularly resonant to me
but you could consider resonance on a the filter later on, I doubt it will help though...
all depends on how steep the filter is 6/12/18/24dB Oct.
That might be a good start to narrow it down. It is quite interesting hunting down a sound, it can be really difficult as well. Sometimes it blows your mind at how simple a sound is when you have gone all around the houses to find how it was made.
Then of course make your own bass line with the preset you end up making. Consider how the kick tail interacts with your own bass line and adjust the pitch accordingly so they sound good together in both pitch interaction, lengths and groove.
All this side chaining the bass from the kick is often a fudge, cause the fundamental kick and bass line sounds are not really working properly.
Good kick and bass in dance music is like a jigsaw puzzle. Get as much right at source before resorting to processing that may not be able to solve the real problems.
When it is sounding really good without it, you can maybe try to reinforce the groove slightly with side chaining bass just a little with the kick. That is not guaranteed though it might sound worse just as easily. So go very easy with it for this style of music.
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neverbeeninariot neverbeeninariot https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=350084 - KVRian
- 1080 posts since 3 Feb, 2015 from UK
Some good tips from Dan W here, esp the 'brain bass' chapter at 17:30, a big fat bass from 3 sine waves, that is not dissimilar (if played in the right context) to the track above (awesome track, btw).
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neverbeeninariot neverbeeninariot https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=350084
- KVRian
- 1080 posts since 3 Feb, 2015 from UK
It's seems a little muddy down the low-mids/bass region, but not particularly dark for the year and genre, about 4.7 on average when the full mix is in (measured in DSEQ3). The high end goes off a cliff at 15kHz, but then my hearing goes off a cliff long before that so who cares what happens up there...Agg wrote: Wed Sep 13, 2023 6:17 pm worth pointing out the whole mix is pretty dark, following roughly 5dB/octave downward slope, not the "modern standard" pink noise slope.
Pretty sure no-one is mixing to pink noise for modern mixes - that's a 3db/oct slope. A bit bass light, no ?
<edit>
Found the track on Spotify - No high-end drop off at 15kHz, and now looking more like 4-ish dB/oct slope - The hats are obnoxiously loud
Last edited by neverbeeninariot on Wed Sep 13, 2023 8:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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neverbeeninariot neverbeeninariot https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=350084
- KVRian
- 1080 posts since 3 Feb, 2015 from UK
heh, funnily enough, there's another post in Sound Design about a Taylor Swift track, "Mean", asking why it's so bass light - it's 3dB/oct
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- KVRist
- 64 posts since 3 Sep, 2023
There's usually a valley in upper bass / low mids for sub-heavy EDM, drum and bass etc, but if you compare highs and the sub, pink noise referencing is still a thing. Actual flat 3dB/oct geometry that looks like pink noise is mainly just for pop/rock. Some genres are a way darker, like minimal styles of house and techno. The rest are somewhere in between.neverbeeninariot wrote: Wed Sep 13, 2023 8:19 pm Pretty sure no-one is mixing to pink noise for modern mixes - that's a 3db/oct slope. A bit bass light, no ?
<edit>
Found the track on Spotify - No high-end drop off at 15kHz, and now looking more like 4-ish dB/oct slope - The hats are obnoxiously loud
MAnalyzer is showing flat 5dB on that tune, with 0ms averaging (looking at highest peaks at the top, not RMS or anything). Can't speak for a decent quality version tho, only the audio routed from Youtube.
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