Sad state of Native Instruments

[vurt]

Drumazon updated to 2.0.1 - fixing the double click crash and some more...

psst wrong thread.

[kinkajou]

Drumazon updated to 2.0.1 - fixing the double click crash and some more...

psst wrong thread.

...what tha... thx

Sorry for that!

[zerocrossing]

I’ve been saying this for a long time.

NI only has two products that matter: Kontakt and Reaktor. But mostly just Kontakt.

However, the sample library industry has matured a lot over the past 20 years. The big names all have their own sample players now, so Kontakt isn’t even as essential or necessary as it once was.

Looks like it was no good idea to make the Kontakt sampler usable for everybody to create their own library's and sell them for lots of money, and survive this way.

It would have been a much better Idea to keep it closed and sell libraryś of great value of their o
Or take great sound designers in and let them create libraryś for them and so on.
Now this chance did pass by and other make money with it.


Well, might be not the most bright idea at all, but while reading all this posts here, I got the impression, that NI gave the most value product, there flagship, out of their hands to others.

When was the last time a proprietary software product like this rose to become the industry standard? Never. Kontakt has always been open for users and developers and that’s been a big part of its success. Do you need Kontakt? No, but I don’t know of anything comparable.

[zerocrossing]

I’ve been saying this for a long time.

NI only has two products that matter: Kontakt and Reaktor. But mostly just Kontakt.

I would have agreed with you a month ago, but now I’m not so sure. Here’s why.

Guitar Rig 7. A major update that brings Guitar Rig’s modeling up to par with the other big players, at least in terms of realism. I personally have always liked Guitar Rig’s sort of artificial sound as an alternative to purely accurate emulations, but now there are enough of the ICM models to give me realism too, plus all the incredible tricks that only Guitar Rig can do.

Kontrol MK3 becomes the most advanced controllers ever made. MIDI 2 and polyphonic aftertouch will make it very popular with a segment of the market that long for better expressive control. This is important for two reasons. The actual functionality that brings, and the notoriety. The functionality is especially important because it means that if Native Instruments software is going to work with Kontrol MK3, it will all need major updates that take advantage of those features. So, even people who don’t buy a Kontrol MK3 may benefit from those new features. For me, it means Massive X will become one of my most used wavetable plugins, going from one I didn’t use that often at all. I really hope that with more per channel expression possible with Kontakt MK3, they make the performers polyphonic. Reaktor will become a lot more useful to me too.

Of course, the sample-pack crowd may never even notice any of this, and not only is it NI’s biggest market segment, it’s probably the biggest market segment in electronic music. Serious build-a-sound-from-scratch people are a small but vocal minority. Most musicians that I know just want to load up a nice sounding preset and get to it. I love to point to my brother who bought a Yamaha ROMpler 20 years ago and has never even tweaked a preset or longed for something new.

[elxsound]

As far as I'm concerned, all's forgiven NI. You're back!

Anyone want to buy a lightly used Hydrasynth Deluxe?

Begrudgingly, I agree. Already preordered.

I’m mulling it over.

I had a scare with my GEM S2 last spring. All of the sudden, one key stopped working. I opened it up, but so nothing mechanically wrong with it. It didn’t look dirty or like the contacts needed cleaning. I put it back together and it was still not working. I messed around a bit and found that if I put it in a different mode, it worked fine. I switched it back and it was still fine. Why? No idea, but it made me think that now that I use it to work, I really couldn’t be without it for even a few days, so I picked up a Hydrasynth Deluxe and put the S2 in storage as a backup.

That’s where I am now. I’m pretty happy with the Hydrasynth, though I missed the feel of the S2 for a bit. Now I’m used to it, though, and I really don’t think about it. Once I got over how bad the aliasing some of the mutators had at the top end of their values, I actually found I liked the sound engine. Kind of like an updated old Ensoniq. I like the extra octave too, and my Maschine fits nicely on the blank spot with the extender on.

But I don’t need another VA. I’ve got so many awesome plugins and actual analogs that it doesn’t get that much work as a sound source. As good as its interface is, I prefer using software, and it doesn’t have a software editor, and for some odd reasons probably never will. Do I sell it, and loose a few hundred dollars, to get something that feels better and has a tighter integration with software? The lazy in me says, “you have a working setup, leave it.” Maybe that lazy dude is a bit pragmatic too. Still, the proceeds from the sale of the Hydrasynth Deluxe would more than pay for the 61 key Kontrol and leave me some to help pay down my Nina debt. I put up a REV2 and an ATC-X and for some reason I’ve not gotten a single bite, but I figure it’s summer and people are busy doing other things, but I am a bit worried. My M sold instantly, but these last two are holding on. Would I even get a buyer for the Hydrasynth at this time? I guess the only way to answer that is to put it up.

My CME UF80 kicked the bucket and I’ve been brutally using only the Opsix & SE-02 for keys. Neither one is decent for that but this is exactly what I was holding out for.

That 2nd hand market is hard to gauge. Prices are dropping on Reverb.

Have you thought about trading it for smaller items that might sell better? There’s some decent communities for that.

I’m planning on selling off Opsix, SE-02 w/ext box and Microfreak. Not sure what kind of return I’ll get, but I want the space since all 3 are somewhat redundant

[RobGee]

If a plugin developer codes NKS2 compatability into their plugin, will it work with "basic" NKS1 benefits on the older hardware, or is it incompatible? Are we looking at a backwards compatible new format for developers to code for or not? It sounds more and more like there will be great compromises since developers aren't required to write as much code, so older hardware will be asking for pixels that possibly will not be there.

NKS1 implementation is entirely separate to NKS2. Both need to exist to have a proper fallback.

That doesn’t sound good, it’s now double the amount of work to support NKS. If you don’t develop for NKS 2 you miss out on all the new features and if you don’t develop for NKS 1 you alienate all the Maschine and Komplete Kontrol MK1 & 2 keyboard owners.

[machinesworking]

If a plugin developer codes NKS2 compatability into their plugin, will it work with "basic" NKS1 benefits on the older hardware, or is it incompatible? Are we looking at a backwards compatible new format for developers to code for or not? It sounds more and more like there will be great compromises since developers aren't required to write as much code, so older hardware will be asking for pixels that possibly will not be there.

NKS1 implementation is entirely separate to NKS2. Both need to exist to have a proper fallback.

That doesn’t sound good, it’s now double the amount of work to support NKS. If you don’t develop for NKS 2 you miss out on all the new features and if you don’t develop for NKS 1 you alienate all the Maschine and Komplete Kontrol MK1 & 2 keyboard owners.

Yeah I'm still trying to figure out how that works out well for anyone? Hopefully EvilDragon just made it seem like much much more work for third party NKS developers, and it's actually fairly easy.

[Double Tap]

I’ve been saying this for a long time.

NI only has two products that matter: Kontakt and Reaktor. But mostly just Kontakt.

I would have agreed with you a month ago, but now I’m not so sure. Here’s why.

Guitar Rig 7. A major update that brings Guitar Rig’s modeling up to par with the other big players, at least in terms of realism. I personally have always liked Guitar Rig’s sort of artificial sound as an alternative to purely accurate emulations, but now there are enough of the ICM models to give me realism too, plus all the incredible tricks that only Guitar Rig can do.

Kontrol MK3 becomes the most advanced controllers ever made. MIDI 2 and polyphonic aftertouch will make it very popular with a segment of the market that long for better expressive control. This is important for two reasons. The actual functionality that brings, and the notoriety. The functionality is especially important because it means that if Native Instruments software is going to work with Kontrol MK3, it will all need major updates that take advantage of those features. So, even people who don’t buy a Kontrol MK3 may benefit from those new features. For me, it means Massive X will become one of my most used wavetable plugins, going from one I didn’t use that often at all. I really hope that with more per channel expression possible with Kontakt MK3, they make the performers polyphonic. Reaktor will become a lot more useful to me too.

Of course, the sample-pack crowd may never even notice any of this, and not only is it NI’s biggest market segment, it’s probably the biggest market segment in electronic music. Serious build-a-sound-from-scratch people are a small but vocal minority. Most musicians that I know just want to load up a nice sounding preset and get to it. I love to point to my brother who bought a Yamaha ROMpler 20 years ago and has never even tweaked a preset or longed for something new.

I agree with a lot of this - when you step back and look at the announcements over the last few days and think about the context of the acquisitions/mergers with iZotope and PA, this is clearly a bit of a watershed moment - now we get to see what they've been doing and where their priorities are: Kontakt, the premium keyboards, DJ gear and the iZotope brands.

None of that is radically different, and a lot of this probably pre-dates the private equity involvement but it's a proper refresh of what is at the core of NI's main relationship with producers and composers.

What's next? Maschine+ is three years old - that's probably next. I'd expect to see new versions of the A-series and M-series next year. K13 and K14 were pretty heavy on granular / sample-based products and expansions with Massive X and the other synths on maintenance - maybe a new flagship soft synth would be a good idea, even though it's a very crowded market. Reaktor feels like it's in a bit of a niche. A DAW would be a fool's errand. Hardware synths? Could they create some kind of super S-series mix of hardware and Kontakt? Perhaps Reaktor hardware? Something using iZotope's AI knowledge? Some kind of FX hardware incorporating GR7 and the PA emulations? It feels like they might be building towards something new, but who knows.

[machinesworking]

What's next? Maschine+ is three years old - that's probably next. ....... A DAW would be a fool's errand.

I really get frustrated thinking about this, Maschine could be as much of a DAW as the MPC 2 is, maybe even more so, but as it stands, MPC 2 beats it by a mile. Maschine+ could be the premier hardware DAW, blurring the lines between computer based DAWs and software, but it's not because of it's entirely crippled sequencer song timeline. Seriously, the fact that a piece of hardware with the ability to load Reaktor ensembles, has a sequencer worse than an MPC from 25 years ago is just wrong.

[wikter]

the fact that a piece of hardware with the ability to load Reaktor ensembles, has a sequencer worse than an MPC from 25 years ago is just wrong.

What's wrong with Maschine sequencing? I have used MPC 1000 + 5000 and i have a MPC Live. Not much difference with Maschine "once you get used to".

[zerocrossing]

I’ve been saying this for a long time.

NI only has two products that matter: Kontakt and Reaktor. But mostly just Kontakt.

I would have agreed with you a month ago, but now I’m not so sure. Here’s why.

Guitar Rig 7. A major update that brings Guitar Rig’s modeling up to par with the other big players, at least in terms of realism. I personally have always liked Guitar Rig’s sort of artificial sound as an alternative to purely accurate emulations, but now there are enough of the ICM models to give me realism too, plus all the incredible tricks that only Guitar Rig can do.

Kontrol MK3 becomes the most advanced controllers ever made. MIDI 2 and polyphonic aftertouch will make it very popular with a segment of the market that long for better expressive control. This is important for two reasons. The actual functionality that brings, and the notoriety. The functionality is especially important because it means that if Native Instruments software is going to work with Kontrol MK3, it will all need major updates that take advantage of those features. So, even people who don’t buy a Kontrol MK3 may benefit from those new features. For me, it means Massive X will become one of my most used wavetable plugins, going from one I didn’t use that often at all. I really hope that with more per channel expression possible with Kontakt MK3, they make the performers polyphonic. Reaktor will become a lot more useful to me too.

Of course, the sample-pack crowd may never even notice any of this, and not only is it NI’s biggest market segment, it’s probably the biggest market segment in electronic music. Serious build-a-sound-from-scratch people are a small but vocal minority. Most musicians that I know just want to load up a nice sounding preset and get to it. I love to point to my brother who bought a Yamaha ROMpler 20 years ago and has never even tweaked a preset or longed for something new.

I agree with a lot of this - when you step back and look at the announcements over the last few days and think about the context of the acquisitions/mergers with iZotope and PA, this is clearly a bit of a watershed moment - now we get to see what they've been doing and where their priorities are: Kontakt, the premium keyboards, DJ gear and the iZotope brands.

None of that is radically different, and a lot of this probably pre-dates the private equity involvement but it's a proper refresh of what is at the core of NI's main relationship with producers and composers.

What's next? Maschine+ is three years old - that's probably next. I'd expect to see new versions of the A-series and M-series next year. K13 and K14 were pretty heavy on granular / sample-based products and expansions with Massive X and the other synths on maintenance - maybe a new flagship soft synth would be a good idea, even though it's a very crowded market. Reaktor feels like it's in a bit of a niche. A DAW would be a fool's errand. Hardware synths? Could they create some kind of super S-series mix of hardware and Kontakt? Perhaps Reaktor hardware? Something using iZotope's AI knowledge? Some kind of FX hardware incorporating GR7 and the PA emulations? It feels like they might be building towards something new, but who knows.

Yeah, they’re licensing Softube algorithms for Guitar Rig, why not slip some of those Brainworx algorithms in there too, or even in a Massive X 2? Even filters. Get that bx_Oberhausen filter inside there.

Massive X was sort of a mixed bag for me. On one hand, they nailed a lot of things, especially the sound. There’s no better way to get a feedback sound in a polyphonic synthesizer than Massive X, though I admit it’s still not as good as what can be done with an actual hardware synth. The filters sound great, interesting wavetables, etc. The flexibility is awesome. But in the time of MPE, they left it out. Polyphonic aftertouch too. Hard for me to really take it seriously when a small developer is giving Vital away for free. The UI too. I don’t need a picture of a hardware synth in front of me to feel like I know what’s going on, but they went way to flat and stripped down. I remember the first time I tried to assign something to aftertouch. I had to go to a manual. After 40 years of doing the synthesizer thing, if you make me look at a manual to do something as simple as that, you have failed.

But it could be great. It’s so close. Polyphonic aftertouch and MIDI 2.0 integration will breathe a lot of life into it. Touch up the UI and put in a proper browser, and now we’re cooking with gas.

[EvilDragon]

Yeah I'm still trying to figure out how that works out well for anyone? Hopefully EvilDragon just made it seem like much much more work for third party NKS developers, and it's actually fairly easy.

Doing NKS2 controller pages is much easier now that we're freed from shackles of terrible editing "capabilities" of Maschine, and this just being programmatic in KSP. All developers I've spoken with about this are overjoyed at the prospect of this.

[Double Tap]

Yeah, they’re licensing Softube algorithms for Guitar Rig, why not slip some of those Brainworx algorithms in there too, or even in a Massive X 2? Even filters. Get that bx_Oberhausen filter inside there.

Yeah that makes a lot of sense. I suppose there will probably be some contractual stuff with some PA devs, but not the Brainworx plugs though. And when will all the PA stuff be in Native Access?

Massive X was sort of a mixed bag for me. On one hand, they nailed a lot of things, especially the sound. There’s no better way to get a feedback sound in a polyphonic synthesizer than Massive X, though I admit it’s still not as good as what can be done with an actual hardware synth. The filters sound great, interesting wavetables, etc. The flexibility is awesome. But in the time of MPE, they left it out. Polyphonic aftertouch too. Hard for me to really take it seriously when a small developer is giving Vital away for free. The UI too. I don’t need a picture of a hardware synth in front of me to feel like I know what’s going on, but they went way to flat and stripped down. I remember the first time I tried to assign something to aftertouch. I had to go to a manual. After 40 years of doing the synthesizer thing, if you make me look at a manual to do something as simple as that, you have failed.

But it could be great. It’s so close. Polyphonic aftertouch and MIDI 2.0 integration will breathe a lot of life into it. Touch up the UI and put in a proper browser, and now we’re cooking with gas.

You could really get a lot out of that. I’ve barely touched Massive/X because I’ve got too many other things I like but I really should find time to take a squizz

[nightjar]

Doing NKS2 controller pages is much easier now that we're freed from shackles of terrible editing "capabilities" of Maschine, and this just being programmatic in KSP. All developers I've spoken with about this are overjoyed at the prospect of this.

Glad to hear that NKS2 will be an easier task. I'm gonna use NKS2-readiness as a huge "thinning out" factor in my palette of "too many choices"..

[machinesworking]

Yeah I'm still trying to figure out how that works out well for anyone? Hopefully EvilDragon just made it seem like much much more work for third party NKS developers, and it's actually fairly easy.

Doing NKS2 controller pages is much easier now that we're freed from shackles of terrible editing "capabilities" of Maschine, and this just being programmatic in KSP. All developers I've spoken with about this are overjoyed at the prospect of this.

OK but does that mean they're overjoyed because NKS1 keyboards like the SL88 MKII here are going to soon experience no support as developers ditch NKS 1 for 2? or has the whole process regardless of new NKS2 functionality become easier, and hardware like mine will still benefit from future development of NKS?

because it still sounds like future development of NKS2 compatibility by developers will leave NKS1 hardware users out of the loop since the new code is easier and it's not compatible with our machines.. I hope I'm wrong but I smell deprecation.