Blue Cat's Destructor - Beyond Distortion and Amp Simulation, Now Available!

[Blue Cat Audio]

Axiom V2 is fully compatible with V1, so you can indeed overwrite your current install to try out the new version and come back to V1 later in case you want to.

[briefcasemanx]

Does axiom 2 contain the full version of destructor?

[Blue Cat Audio]

It does contain a built-in version of Destructor. The only difference with the "full" standalone version is that it cannot be loaded outside of Axiom, and some of the non-guitar related presets are missing.

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

With some tweaking, or even just the right preset, I've been able to get some really nice tones out of Axiom 2. Nice work.

The user manual is pretty spartan though, so do you mind if I ask some questions just to try to better understand/learn it? I just want to make sure my basic understand of Axiom is mostly right as it's very different from other amp sims.

In the amp section, we can tweak the Preamp, Destruction, and Post-Filter. My understanding is that the preamp is really just a "pre-filter/EQ", the Destructor section is where the gain modeling is occuring, and the post-filter is truly a post-filter/EQ. So the preamp isn't a true tube amp gain stage, that's actually happening in the Destruction section. Is that right?

Is there anywhere I can go to learn more about what the Destruction setting is actually doing? Like, I've been playing with things by ear and I kind of got what's happening overall, but the manual doesn't seem to cover the actual features and what each knob does.

Also, Destruction is more of a general purpose distortion from what I can tell. There are no options to be like "hey, give me the sound 4 6L6's" right? In my head, I'd love to just be able to pick like a Champ preamp stage (12AX7), run into a Deluxe Reverb power amp stage, and then add a Vox-style tone stack into it. Seems like we can approximate this, but Axiom goes so far beyond this there aren't really equivalents. Would you say that's accurate?

How were the Pre, Destruction, and Post presets dialed in? Like the B-Face Lux Pre presets have a different mid-point center frequency than a Deluxe Reverb would. It seems like these were tuned by ear versus any technical/circuit "emulation" of a Fender tone stack. Tip: there's a Tone Stack Calculator you can download and play with to see exactly how a Fender vs. Marshall vs Vox tone stack work.

In the Post-Filter section, if I don't load an IR, that filter "is my cabinet" right? And if I load an IR, the various EQ points are basically EQ'ing the IR? Is that also right?

In terms of features and future enhancements, I'd love to see more guitar specific stuff. Like there's a tremolo, but I'd like options for a Bias Trem (Princeton Reverb style), Harmonic Trem (brown panel Fender amps), or Opto Trem (Deluxe Reverb style).

[PatchAdamz]

It does contain a built-in version of Destructor. The only difference with the "full" standalone version is that it cannot be loaded out of Axiom, and some of the non-guitar related presets are missing.

Still 100% usable.....

[Blue Cat Audio]

Still 100% usable.....

Yes, definitely! It is not a "limited" version.

[Blue Cat Audio]

With some tweaking, or even just the right preset, I've been able to get some really nice tones out of Axiom 2. Nice work.

Thanks!

The user manual is pretty spartan though, so do you mind if I ask some questions just to try to better understand/learn it? I just want to make sure my basic understand of Axiom is mostly right as it's very different from other amp sims.

Have you checked the user manual from Destructor (there us an updated version inside the plug-in)? That's where the amp simulation is explained with more details (Axiom focuses on high level routing and behavior):

- The PREAMP (pre- filter) section corresponds to the first gain stages of a guitar amp or pedal, shaping the tone before it hits
the distortion stages. You will usually want to remove the low end and increase the treble in many cases for more clarity in the
guitar tone.
- The DESTRUCTION (distortion) section is where the magic happens. From compression to static distortion, it is capable of
many types of effects and can be adapted to your own playing thanks to the dymamics settings. Many guitar- specific presets
are provided to get you started.
- The POST FILTER section roughly corresponds to the cabinet section in most traditional amp simulations. But it is a bit more
than that, as some amps will actually perform some additional filtering after the distortion stages. Anyway, here again many
presets are provided, and you can use tone maps to build your own cabinets by ear

Is there anywhere I can go to learn more about what the Destruction setting is actually doing? Like, I've been playing with things by ear and I kind of got what's happening overall, but the manual doesn't seem to cover the actual features and what each knob does.

You should find all the details (and more) in the Destructor manual.

Also, Destruction is more of a general purpose distortion from what I can tell. There are no options to be like "hey, give me the sound 4 6L6's" right? In my head, I'd love to just be able to pick like a Champ preamp stage (12AX7), run into a Deluxe Reverb power amp stage, and then add a Vox-style tone stack into it. Seems like we can approximate this, but Axiom goes so far beyond this there aren't really equivalents. Would you say that's accurate?

Yes Destructor does not try to model specific hardware so you won't find such presets. The destruction stage is probably the trickiest part to tweak in details at first, so it is recommended to use the "Typical Guitar" presets instead, and even better go thru the various amp presets and reuse the destruction stage that sounds good to your ears (most of them have been tweaked individually). Another method consists in using tone maps to find your tone faster, and then have a look at the way it is setup behind the scenes.

How were the Pre, Destruction, and Post presets dialed in? Like the B-Face Lux Pre presets have a different mid-point center frequency than a Deluxe Reverb would. It seems like these were tuned by ear versus any technical/circuit "emulation" of a Fender tone stack. Tip: there's a Tone Stack Calculator you can download and play with to see exactly how a Fender vs. Marshall vs Vox tone stack work.

They were all dialed in using our own measurements on existing gear, and fine tuned by ears, guitar in hand (yes, it is pretty time consuming...). You will indeed find some good simulations of tone stacks here and there, but it is usually not enough, as when you change the gain in many amps, it also modifies the tone stack. So it cannot be replicated as is with Destructor, which drive parameter does not affect the preamp EQ.

In the Post-Filter section, if I don't load an IR, that filter "is my cabinet" right? And if I load an IR, the various EQ points are basically EQ'ing the IR? Is that also right?

Yes, it is basically the cab + sometimes some additional filtering (some amps actually have some post-equalization happening, after the distortion happens).

In terms of features and future enhancements, I'd love to see more guitar specific stuff. Like there's a tremolo, but I'd like options for a Bias Trem (Princeton Reverb style), Harmonic Trem (brown panel Fender amps), or Opto Trem (Deluxe Reverb style).

Yeah the harmonic trem is something we would definitely like to explore

Destructor's amp modeling is definitely a different approach and might look confusing when trying to set it up the "old way", but once you get used to it, it lets you dial tones much faster, and also lets you explore new territories.

All in all, it's a good idea to start digging into presets and sub presets and tone maps first, before diving into the deepest layer with all parameters .

I hope this helps!

[tonycore]

when you change the gain in many amps, it also modifies the tone stack. So it cannot be replicated as is with Destructor, which drive parameter does not affect the preamp EQ.

Do you (Blue Cat) have any ideas on how one might explore this? Can we set up macros (are there any suggested approaches) that would link volume changes to tonal changes?

[Blue Cat Audio]

You could do that using a macro parameters in Axiom, but honestly I don't think it is worth the trouble!

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

Thanks for the detailed reply to my post. Sounds like I was on the right track, except not thinking to look in the Destructor manual!

As I learn a little here and there about tube amp design, it's fascinating how they work but I need to not think of Destructor the same way. Or at least, not entirely the same.

It's fascinating how little the basic design principals are from tube amp to amp. So much really seems about where in the circuit you stick the Tone Stack, how many preamp stages you have, what power tubes you chose and how many of those are in there, as well as how much filtering and phase inversion you've got going on. Transformers and tube brand (of the same type) will have a slight impact tone, but not in a huge way. Heck the cabinet and speaker will play a bigger role in that than tube band. But guitar forums and magazines will tell you the tubes are hugely important. In simple designs sure, but in many amps, you won't hear a difference at all.

If you ever wanted to make another guitar plugin, one geared towards tube amps, I'd love to see something that offered a bunch of different preamp and poweramp configurations with insertable Tone Stacks and Cuts, all based on real-world designs.

Example:
I want a Deluxe Reverb preamp section (3x12AX7's) into a...
Marshall 100w Super Bass power amp (4xEL34s) with a...
Vox AC30 tone stack and...
Marshall presence knob

...and the system would be smart enough to go, ok, the AC30 tone stack exists in right at the end of the preamp stage right before the phase inverter, the Marshall Presence knob is in the Power Amp phase, and I can modularly configure the different parts of a preamp and power amp to accommodate this. Earlier versions of Amplitube attempted this but the modeling wasn't there and I don't think they were that deep in terms of knowing where in the signal to put things. Maybe even have options for Cathode Bias, or adjustable fixed Bias along with solid state vs. tube rectifiers.

Axiom is almost there, but was designed to go beyond what I'm describing. I'd love a product geared specifically to convincingly replicate tube guitar amp stages in a modular manner. I'd call "Amp Designer" or "Tube Amp Designer". See? Even thought up a name.

Sorry, random pontificating.

[Blue Cat Audio]

Well the thing is... That's the very reason why Destructor / Axiom was built this way, and not like an actual amp: I don't think you can predict easily what is going to happen using electric components simulation and mixing stuff together, unless you are an experienced guitar amp designer (and even most of them say it's really hard to predict). There are way too many things that may interact with each other, and if you are looking for a particular tone it will take ages to get there this way, and also lots of CPU!

And apart from Marketing departments in big companies, who actually knows in details how all these things work?

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

Fair enough, the topologies are basically limited but what makes an actual circuit sound good is indeed a bit of a mystery. I've heard this from amp builders too. Sometimes what you think should sound great, doesn't, and vice versa. I was imagining some semi-modular models with kind of insert points for the tone stack, tuned to work with each other. But yeah, that may be easier said than done in practice.

[Blue Cat Audio]

Fair enough, the topologies are basically limited but what makes an actual circuit sound good is indeed a bit of a mystery. I've heard this from amp builders too. Sometimes what you think should sound great, doesn't, and vice versa. I was imagining some semi-modular models with kind of insert points for the tone stack, tuned to work with each other. But yeah, that may be easier said than done in practice.

I guess it might be fun to experiment with this in the "real" world (with electronics), but you might be surprised by the fact that most of the time only one or two components make sound.

[DaveClark]

If you ever wanted to make another guitar plugin, one geared towards tube amps, I'd love to see something that offered a bunch of different preamp and poweramp configurations with insertable Tone Stacks and Cuts, all based on real-world designs.

Example:
I want a Deluxe Reverb preamp section (3x12AX7's) into a...
Marshall 100w Super Bass power amp (4xEL34s) with a...
Vox AC30 tone stack and...
Marshall presence knob

Not all that long ago, I created some pieces of amps that users would be able to string together to build their own amps as described. However, I soon thought about the combinatorial explosion that this would create. For example, some users might want each individual tube or transistor stage and associated circuitry to be included, while others might prefer to have two stages at a time, four stages at a time, or even six or more stages at a time. To be inclusive, I would have had to create various combinations and individuals, and for every conceivable amp, so that all the possible FrankenAmps could be created. If all the circuit topologies were the same, this wouldn’t be such a problem (although still quite large), but the circuit topologies are not all the same.

Other questions about what to include and not include came up such as whether or not to include a gain control as part of a tube stage, given that this control may be the only inter-stage filter. If so, should it be included as part of the previous stage, or as part of the following stage? Or should the gain control always be completely separate, even if it’s a trivial circuit? Or all the above such as users may very well prefer?

Another factor is that building FrankenAmps by more or less randomly stringing together subcircuits from various known entities is not the best way to go about building new amps, as already discussed.

In the end, I moved this project to the bottom of my list.

What I have done instead with actual amps is to mod certain schematic diagrams and feed them into ltspice, then capture them in Tonex. It’s a pain because Tonex is not all that it coulda, woulda, shoulda been, requiring the user to fool around with files outside of Tonex itself, but it’s doable. (Basically it requires manual intervention at various times.) Now the result is merely a snapshot of an amp as we all know, so it’s not anywhere near as useful as a complete simulation of the hardware would be, but with enough schematics and pieces of schematics put together, all captured with several settings, one could have quite a nice collection of FrankenAmps based on actual amps.

I also think that the approach Blue Cat Audio is taking is a very good one, allowing users to extensively modify the various steps of processing, even if users cannot change the material used in the cathode heaters in tubes and cannot change the base width of bipolar transistors, for example! Axiom 2 has everything and more that those of us who worked on AcmeBarGig HeadCase years ago ever dreamed about having. Blue Cat Audio did a fantastic job, IMO.

[Blue Cat Audio]

I also think that the approach Blue Cat Audio is taking is a very good one, allowing users to extensively modify the various steps of processing, even if users cannot change the material used in the cathode heaters in tubes and cannot change the base width of bipolar transistors, for example! Axiom 2 has everything and more that those of us who worked on AcmeBarGig HeadCase years ago ever dreamed about having. Blue Cat Audio did a fantastic job, IMO.

Thanks!