Bitwig sampler -incorrect operation ?

[Anatolio]

Friends, I have encountered strange aspects of the Bitwig sampler, my brain is boiling, help me figure it out - the audio sample played through the Bitwig Sampler using MIDI differs in sound and duration from the original audio sample.

My task was to clone a long voice sample by lowering the pitch clone by an octave and use this layered sample of 2 layers on different notes in a melodic sequence.

I took a vocal sample, the key A# is indicated in its name, and I specified this A#2 in the "root" of the Bitwig sampler. In the note Editor, I put the note "C3" for the 1st and 2nd layers of the sample made. The bpm of the project was equal to the bpm of the sample. I expected that 1 layer of the sample (without pitch change) would play identically to the original sample (in audio track mode), and 2 layer (with pitch change) would be equal in duration to 1 layer. But it turned out to be the opposite :

a) The sample played through the sampler, according to midi notes, did not coincide in duration with the original sample played as an audio track! I discovered this by using the "Bounce in place" function, comparing the lengths of sounds in wav. Naturally , at the same time , differences in pitch can be heard by ear . The differences are almost imperceptible, but well fixed by monitoring the duration of d wav samples (visually). I tried to move the played note (instead of C3) up and down in midi, but still did not achieve an identical sound with the original sample in the "audio track" mode. The difference is less than a semitone, maybe 50 cents or so.

b) The sample layer changed by pitch, lowering by (1 octave) is very different in duration from 1 layer, which did not change by pitch, and using both of these layers creates a mismatched sound, which of course negates this whole operation, because you need a unison of identical pitch sounds that can be used on different notes. I've been digging into the Bitwig sampler for a long time, but I haven't found any stretch/compression modes that would solve the problem of changing the duration. Such options are available in the inspector panel for the Audio track - there the pitch-named sample coincides in duration with the original one. But how to do this in the native Bitwig sampler ?

Puzzled by all this, I decided to repeat the experiment in other samplers - in the CR8 (Waves) sampler and in Serato.

Serato himself showed the tone of the sample - Ebm, it was different from the one in the sample name "A#", but everything sounded correct, I did not make edits to the root key. Lowering by an octave gave a wav duration ALMOST equal to the original sample

CR8 - correctly recognized root key A# (but in the first octave), as well as bpm. But if you specify A#2 in root, then the sample through it will sound identical to the original one only if the note A#2 is registered in the midi. By default, there is a C3 in the root sampler, and since the note in the midi is registered in C3, everything sounds correctly "out of the box" without manipulating the root key. So CR8 , like Serato , automatically configures the root key ? And the sample lowered by an octave in duration coincided with the original sample (in Melodic mode)

As a result, questions arise :

1) How to work correctly in the Bitwig Sampler so that the samples played by notes are identical to the original samples in tonality and duration? After all, now working with midi through the Bitwig sampler makes the difference between working with samples in the "Audio Track" mode. And if a pitch change is also required ?Are there any solutions without using third-party plugins? Or is there no way to solve this and the native Bitwig sampler should not be used ? Then advise good substitutes.

2) Root key -why are the operating modes so different in different samplers? I don't understand, does CR8 automatically hijack root? is that why there was a difference with Bitwig ?

In the video below, the same sample is played through different samplers in the original key and one note, and after rendering, the length of the files is compared with the original audio sample :

[D-Fusion]

If you add one sound in a Sampler it will always play slower on lower pitch than the root note and faster the higher you play on the keys above the root note.

Only way to get around that is using a sampler that has built in tempo sync for the sound you add so it keeps the correct lenght during playing or make multiple files at different pitches.

[Jac459]

There is no stretch feature in Bitwig Sampler as far as I know.
BUT you have a granular function that can achieve almost similar result. (Granular is arguably one way to time stretch).
You need to change the repitch setting to Textures mode. Then you can play with the settings to obtain a very convincing time stretching (or a crazy effect).

I am not sure I fully understood your explanation but my theory is:
Say you drag and drop a 128bpm loop in the arrangement view.
If your DAW tempo is 130bpm the sample will move to 130bpm automatically (you can disable this behaviour).
IF you move the very same tempo to the sampler, it won't time stretch the loop to 130bpm and you will be with your 128bpm loop in your sampler.
Also you need be careful on the "root" part of the sampler, to be sure it is correct, and you can also play with the pitch know in the sampler (but it is not a time stretching).

Also of course, sample play speed change depending of your pitch but I assume you know that already.

[Anatolio]

If you add one sound in a Sampler it will always play slower on lower pitch than the root note and faster the higher you play on the keys above the root note.

Only way to get around that is using a sampler that has built in tempo sync for the sound you add so it keeps the correct lenght during playing or make multiple files at different pitches.

This is extremely sad news . It looks like a defect in the sampler, because other samplers in my example coped with the task. To be honest, I am unpleasantly surprised by this in Bitwig. It turns out the same sampler from Waves CR8 - a more perfect instrument.

Now I will use the native sampler only for the drum part, it is not suitable for more (for me)

And how the native sampler works in Ableton, write who knows.

But there remains the question of the mismatch of sound and duration , even on a native note ! In my case, the difference was about 50 cents. That is, even without playing higher/lower, I still won't get a sound identical to the original sample... Sadness

[Jac459]

Did you read my answer ?

[muzicxs]

You can do precisely what you want if you change the mode to "Textures" as Jac459 mentioned...

[Anatolio]

I am not sure I fully understood your explanation but my theory is:
Say you drag and drop a 128bpm loop in the arrangement view.
If your DAW tempo is 130bpm the sample will move to 130bpm automatically (you can disable this behaviour).
IF you move the very same tempo to the sampler, it won't time stretch the loop to 130bpm and you will be with your 128bpm loop in your sampler.
Also you need be careful on the "root" part of the sampler, to be sure it is correct, and you can also play with the pitch know in the sampler (but it is not a time stretching).

Also of course, sample play speed change depending of your pitch but I assume you know that already.

No, my example is even simpler: in I drag a project with 128 BPM a long sample with 128 BPM. I set the root note and see that even on one note the sound from the sampler does not match the original sound sample. I see this by the difference in the duration of the wav of the original and rendered sound from the sampler.

There is no stretch feature in Bitwig Sampler as far as I know.
BUT you have a granular function that can achieve almost similar result. (Granular is arguably one way to time stretch).
You need to change the repitch setting to Textures mode. Then you can play with the settings to obtain a very convincing time stretching (or a crazy effect).

The time-stretching games are a dubious solution. Just to get a "crazy sound", but that's another task. And it turns out easier for me to take another sampler in which the playback will be identical to the original sample. But this is the purchase of third-party programs.

Or maybe you can direct the audio track in which I changed the pitch on the inspector panel somehow to another instrumental track in Bitwig to play notes with this sample? This can be done and whether it will work correctly. Although probably not, because you still have to use the Bitwig sampler...

[Anatolio]

Did you read my answer ?

You can do precisely what you want if you change the mode to "Textures" as Jac459 mentioned...

Yes, I understand what you're talking about. I twisted the "textures".This will work for effects, but not for the exact layering of identical voice samples with different pitch - the layers will NOT MATCH in sound and duration. And adjusting to the exact duration is an extra job.

[Trancit]

...And how the native sampler works in Ableton, write who knows.

...

Abletons "Simpler" (not the Sampler) does have timestretch inbuilt... so you could expect here the same results like with Serato and CR-8...

It´s true that Bitwig is a bit behind as being nearly the only DAW left which doesn´t have timestretch included in it´s native sampler but otoh it´s the youngest of all DAWs and you cannot built everything at once...

But for your example... yes, for the moment you have to use a 3rd party plugin if you want torealize something like this in Bitwig...

[Jac459]

Did you read my answer ?

You can do precisely what you want if you change the mode to "Textures" as Jac459 mentioned...

Yes, I understand what you're talking about. I twisted the "textures".This will work for effects, but not for the exact layering of identical voice samples with different pitch - the layers will NOT MATCH in sound and duration. And adjusting to the exact duration is an extra job.

No no no, I understand by your answer that you are scratching the surface of the sampler. It is much much much (didn't I say much ?) more powerful that you think. The Bitwig sampler is actually a beast.

If you want a very very good timestrech by the sampler. And have EXACTLY the right speed in the sample.
It is very easy.
You need to use the atomic power of ... MODULATIONS.

STEP 1 : Open a modulation and choose for example ... segment.
STEP 2 : draw a straight line starting from 0 and going to 1 at the end.
STEP 3 : link this modulator to the Play offset so that the modulator is offsetting 100% at max.
STEP 4 : Click the little freeze icon.
STEP 5: Be happy
The sampler will read your sampler EXACTLY at the speed you want and EXACTLY with the pitch you want. You can set in the modulator at which speed your sample will be read (can be in seconds or in fraction of your tempo).
You can also totally change the speed during the playback by changing the straight line to be actually a curve.

So the conclusion is : the sampler is a freaking powerhouse and you DON'T need to buy another sampler.
You just have to play around with the modulators... (it is actually much much easier than you think).

[Anatolio]

Bitwig made a "texture" mode in the sampler, but did not make the necessary function similar to the CR8 sampler - This is the "Melodic" mode when the length of the sample will be identical to the original sound on any note! Why is that? I hope the developers will read this thread

[Jac459]

...And how the native sampler works in Ableton, write who knows.

...

Abletons "Simpler" (not the Sampler) does have timestretch inbuilt... so you could expect here the same results like with Serato and CR-8...

It´s true that Bitwig is a bit behind as being nearly the only DAW left which doesn´t have timestretch included in it´s native sampler but otoh it´s the youngest of all DAWs and you cannot built everything at once...

But for your example... yes, for the moment you have to use a 3rd party plugin if you want torealize something like this in Bitwig...

Actually I was wrong saying than the sampler doesn't have timestrech. It actually has a super powerful one using the modulators (cf my previous post).

[pdxindy]

I took a vocal sample, the key A# is indicated in its name, and I specified this A#2 in the "root" of the Bitwig sampler. In the note Editor, I put the note "C3"

If you set the root to A#2, then playing a note A#2 will play it at the original speed.

If you play a C3, it will play faster than original speed.

[Anatolio]

Did you read my answer ?

You can do precisely what you want if you change the mode to "Textures" as Jac459 mentioned...

Yes, I understand what you're talking about. I twisted the "textures".This will work for effects, but not for the exact layering of identical voice samples with different pitch - the layers will NOT MATCH in sound and duration. And adjusting to the exact duration is an extra job.

No no no, I understand by your answer that you are scratching the surface of the sampler. It is much much much (didn't I say much ?) more powerful that you think. The Bitwig sampler is actually a beast.

If you want a very very good timestrech by the sampler. And have EXACTLY the right speed in the sample.
It is very easy.
You need to use the atomic power of ... MODULATIONS.

STEP 1 : Open a modulation and choose for example ... segment.
STEP 2 : draw a straight line starting from 0 and going to 1 at the end.
STEP 3 : link this modulator to the Play offset so that the modulator is offsetting 100% at max.
STEP 4 : Click the little freeze icon.
STEP 5: Be happy
The sampler will read your sampler EXACTLY at the speed you want and EXACTLY with the pitch you want. You can set in the modulator at which speed your sample will be read (can be in seconds or in fraction of your tempo).
You can also totally change the speed during the playback by changing the straight line to be actually a curve.

So the conclusion is : the sampler is a freaking powerhouse and you DON'T need to buy another sampler.
You just have to play around with the modulators... (it is actually much much easier than you think).

Ohoho, you've given me hope back...although becoming a programmer for the sake of matching the length of a sample with the original sample is a rational task ?

In any case, I'll try your method tomorrow, although I'm not sure if I'll figure it out? If it doesn 't bother you, can you post a video of these operations ?

But I also remind you of my unanswered question - the sound through the sampler, even on the native note, did not coincide with the original sample by about half a semitone. Why?? How to treat it ?

[pdxindy]

The sampler will read your sampler EXACTLY at the speed you want and EXACTLY with the pitch you want. You can set in the modulator at which speed your sample will be read (can be in seconds or in fraction of your tempo).

That only works for one note though... you cannot play 3 different notes and get 3 different pitches all playing at the same speed