KVR Audio

zerocrossing · Post by **zerocrossing** » Wed Oct 04, 2023 4:17 am

Lately I’ve had the need to do a lot of music and sound effects to video and Bitwig doesn’t have that ability and I don’t feel like dealing with some third party method to sync video from another application. I could add Reaper, which I checked out and it seems to work fine, but there’s a fairly steep learning curve going from Bitwig to Reaper. It wasn’t too bad going from Live to Bitwig.

The reason I left Live was because I got an MPE controller (Roli Rise 49) and Live was terrible for it. Now it’s got MPE support, but how good is it? Will I miss Bitwig’s MPE support, or is Live mostly good?

The reason I didn’t go back to Live was because I really like Bitwig’s modulation system. I’m often using audio feeds from other tracks to modulate things. I know they made M4L integrated into Live, but is it fairly comparable? To be honest, I never got into Bitwig’s Grid. It always sounded worse than Reaktor or Softube, and if I need polyphonic I’m happier using VCV Rack Pro.

Anything I’m not thinking about? I always missed Live’s Looper and its ability to set the project tempo by the loop length. Clap? I never quite dug in to figure out what that was all about. It’s one of those things that seems to be fixing an issue I don’t have.

As always, any thoughts are welcome.

rod_zero · Post by **rod_zero** » Wed Oct 04, 2023 5:53 am

JFYI support for loading videos on Live running on WIndows is still mess, if you are on Mac then its Ok.

M4L is more advanced than the grid, like the sky is the limit, but it is also harder to make devices and more CPU hungry and the GUI is just not comparable to using any other modular synth environment. Honestly I have never liked M4L instruments, but the sequencers and effects can be great. But I also find I like reaktor sound much more.

Using the modulators build in M4L is getting better but still doesn't feel as snappy as in Bitwig native modulators.

As for MPE, in Live you can either feed directly to a plugin the MPE data if it supports it, but you can also place the MPE device first and configure some stuff as slide curve, pressure curve and note pitch bend curve and parameters for each one. Some Ableton Native synths have the 3 dimensions as modulation sources: Wavetable for all destinations, Drift for a few parameters, tension and collision for a few destinations.

machinesworking · Post by **machinesworking** » Wed Oct 04, 2023 7:25 am

I never officially gave up Live for Bitwig, mostly because a few collaborators use Live.
Same reasons for moving though, Live was terrible for MPE before it got MPE support, and still not as good until recently. I was also someone who didn't and still to a degree does not understand why the WYSIWYG DAW needed to graft on an object oriented programming language like Max to get an LFO, but years later there are some just amazing looking M4L devices, this beast comes to mind: https://granurise.com Plus, M4L gives me access to SysEx for hardware synths. Then there's MIDI capture, comping, movie support, and Jitter. I've never 100% been all in on modulators as a reason to use Bitwig over Live, you can always uses a dummy clip with automation in it to modulate a VST in any shape you want regardless of the M4L LFO, it's not that hard.

Of course I could name dozens of things I like better about Bitwig, it's a bit quicker to set up MPE for the most part, plugin sandboxing is fantastic, keyboard shortcuts are more extensive and laid out logically (except where they follow Lives method, but that's a zero learning curve thing), and IMO navigation is a bit less mouse oriented in Bitwig.I like Moss's scripts a lot and the fact that you can have more than 6 control surfaces.

The main thing though is the tools, and right now for what I do and who I'm working with Live is ahead of Bitwig. Plus, IMO Bitwigs update plan is too aggressive, it's almost impossible to not want to always have a plan running so the bare minimum IMO is around $130 a year to run Bitwig, Live is more or less $235 every three to five years so after initial purchase it's much cheaper.

Anyway thats my take, Live is IMO slightly more molasses in the navigation but the plusses are pretty solid.

xbitz · Post by **xbitz** » Wed Oct 04, 2023 12:39 pm

I somehow feel that it's a better strategy, maybe because I followed this, to check out the new features on Splice first. The one-month "testing" period costs $16, and only then upgrade if I find them useful

https://splice.com/daws/39084269-bitwig ... -by-bitwig

zerocrossing · Post by **zerocrossing** » Wed Oct 04, 2023 4:46 pm

machinesworking wrote: Wed Oct 04, 2023 7:25 amI've never 100% been all in on modulators as a reason to use Bitwig over Live, you can always uses a dummy clip with automation in it to modulate a VST in any shape you want regardless of the M4L LFO, it's not that hard.

That’s one of the Live tricks that I used all the time.

apoclypse · Post by **apoclypse** » Wed Oct 04, 2023 5:29 pm

For my purposes Bitwig mostly woks just fine. I definitely prefer the interface in Bitwig vs Live. However everytime I go back to Live, there is some super useful tool or function that Bitwig doesn't have and probably never will have as Bitwig devs don't really seem to focus much on what I consider QoL features. I don't want to mess with the grid, modulation is beyond cool, but my needs they're rudimentary at best. However I would like time stretch in the sampler, I would like Audio to midi, I would like capture.

The only time I've opened M4L in Live was to see what the modules looked like, but I never have to open it. It has plenty of amazing sounding easy to use instruments and effects right in the library. The Color Limiter is great! The only thing that turns me off about Ableton is the interface. I just can't get into it.

xbitz · Post by **xbitz** » Wed Oct 04, 2023 5:58 pm

the biggest issue with Bitwig is that Protoculture keeps using newer and more interesting plugins with it

https://www.sonicacademy.com/courses/tr ... otoculture

Képernyőfotó 2023-10-04 - 19.53.44.png

my wallet doesn't like this

especially the masting ones

ps. but at least it was well-timed with the autumn sale of Sonible

liquidsound · Post by **liquidsound** » Wed Oct 04, 2023 6:50 pm

xbitz wrote: Wed Oct 04, 2023 5:58 pm the biggest issue with Bitwig is that Protoculture keeps using newer and more interesting plugins with it

https://www.sonicacademy.com/courses/tr ... otoculture

Képernyőfotó 2023-10-04 - 19.53.44.png
my wallet doesn't like this especially the masting ones

ps. but at least it was well-timed with the autumn sale of Sonible

After Cubase, anything is great for him including Bitwig

xbitz · Post by **xbitz** » Wed Oct 04, 2023 8:44 pm

^^^ if Cubase then Doctor Mix, it can't be wrong

liquidsound · Post by **liquidsound** » Wed Oct 04, 2023 9:00 pm

xbitz wrote: Wed Oct 04, 2023 8:44 pm ^^^ if Cubase then Doctor Mix, it can't be wrong

Great guy

but the Cubase UI and the studio reminds me of the Houston Mission Control Center

jonljacobi · Post by **jonljacobi** » Thu Oct 05, 2023 1:33 am

Just use both. Neither would be my first choice for video. That said, I'm not sure what would be.

zerocrossing · Post by **zerocrossing** » Thu Oct 05, 2023 2:30 am

jonljacobi wrote: Thu Oct 05, 2023 1:33 am Just use both. Neither would be my first choice for video. That said, I'm not sure what would be.

I don’t have a large video need. The game I’m currently working on has a bunch of animated robots and weapons, and I’ve been using the Maya keyframes to match up to the animations, but it’s a bit of a pain in the ass. I basically just want to be able to watch the animation play as I set up little bits of samples and synth sounds that correspond to what I’m watching.

elassi · Post by **elassi** » Thu Oct 05, 2023 3:47 am

For modulating in Live try this free Modulators-pack (both MIDI and Audio-driven, s. image).

If you like it (I did), then you'll probably end up buying one of their paid packs/creations which offer some additional sequencing and/or modulating tools to lively up your compositions.

liquidsound · Post by **liquidsound** » Thu Oct 05, 2023 5:55 am

Try “Modulat” as well. Quite deep.

machinesworking · Post by **machinesworking** » Thu Oct 05, 2023 5:45 pm

zerocrossing wrote: Thu Oct 05, 2023 2:30 am
jonljacobi wrote: Thu Oct 05, 2023 1:33 am Just use both. Neither would be my first choice for video. That said, I'm not sure what would be.
I don’t have a large video need. The game I’m currently working on has a bunch of animated robots and weapons, and I’ve been using the Maya keyframes to match up to the animations, but it’s a bit of a pain in the ass. I basically just want to be able to watch the animation play as I set up little bits of samples and synth sounds that correspond to what I’m watching.

The third party video hosting for Bitwig is what like $20? I mean if you're just needing some simple sync, it probably will work fine.

Live is great, IMO personally, the main issues I have with Live, I have with Bitwig, so it's just a different pony. I get wanting direct support, and Live does offer that. Personally I would just use DP, but I get not wanting to DAW hop.

Moving back to Live from Bigwig?