Minimal Audio Current…subscription

[Jac459]

Spent 15 minutes, can't see anything related to spectral synthesis.

Yeah.

I generally think of spectral resynthesis when someone mentions spectral.

Spectral resynthesis is usually analysis of the spectral content using FFT and then resynthesised using partials and residuals (filtered noise). As you said above the most common form of reconstruction is using additive synthesis.

I don't see anything like that in Skydust. It's a subtractive/FM hybrid with some fancy sound field capabilities (depending on the version)

Neither do you see anything like that in Current, AFAIK. You need a very powerful and extensive Additive Synthesis Engine to do that.

You can do instantaneous spectral analysis in Msoundfactory with the additive oscillator and modal filter. But it's not dynamic.

Alchemy has a pretty good spectral engine.

I think the upcoming Sumu by Madrona labs (if it ever sees the light of day) looks like it will be the big Kahuna of spectral synths.

Alchemy is a good example of a synthesizer capable of Resynthesis, due to its powerful additive synthesis engine (that's its original synthesis engine). Some wavetable synthesizers also perform a kind of resynthesis (again, when their wavetable is additive based as was the case of the PPG/Waldorf. Tone 2 Icarus is a good example of a synthesizer that performs sample analysis and wavetable creation with very good quality. Serum also performs resynthesis through wavetable creation, as do Pigments, and almost all of the wavetable synthesizers. But I personally don't classify that as spectral synthesis.

Arturia Fairlight and Synclavier both perform resynthesis as well (these in a more traditional analysis and resynthesis through additive way). Virsyn Cube (unfortunaley now abandonware) was perhaps the most powerful analysis and resynthesis synth I ever knew. That's what I would classify as a fully featured spectral synth: https://www.virsyn.net/desktop/cube.html

Regarding SkyDust, it has Oscillator Modifiers, which alter the waveform spectrum and work in real-time. That's what brings SlyDust close to Current, IMO. Here's a description:

"Waveform modifiers, also known as waveform shaping, are techniques and tools that enable you to modify the shape and characteristics of a waveform generated by an oscillator. These modifiers provide the means to sculpt and manipulate the timbre of the waveform, allowing you to create complex and distinctive sounds that go beyond the standard waveforms. Within SkyDust, you have access to a variety of modifiers that greatly enhance your ability to manipulate and shape sounds. These modifiers include Silence, Amplitude Offset, Wave Folding, Positive Wave Folding, Clipping, Bit Crusher, Time Shift Up, and Time Shift Down. By utilizing these modifiers, you can expand your creative possibilities and explore new dimensions in sound manipulation."

In current the sub is actually an additive synthesis engine.

The modifiers of SkyDust are NOT spectral. The wace shaping is immediately applied to the wave.
In Thorn, Europa or Current, the wave is first decomposed in partials sin waves and then processed. The difference for the user is much more flexibility of processing.

[fmr]

Spent 15 minutes, can't see anything related to spectral synthesis.

Yeah.

I generally think of spectral resynthesis when someone mentions spectral.

Spectral resynthesis is usually analysis of the spectral content using FFT and then resynthesised using partials and residuals (filtered noise). As you said above the most common form of reconstruction is using additive synthesis.

I don't see anything like that in Skydust. It's a subtractive/FM hybrid with some fancy sound field capabilities (depending on the version)

Neither do you see anything like that in Current, AFAIK. You need a very powerful and extensive Additive Synthesis Engine to do that.

You can do instantaneous spectral analysis in Msoundfactory with the additive oscillator and modal filter. But it's not dynamic.

Alchemy has a pretty good spectral engine.

I think the upcoming Sumu by Madrona labs (if it ever sees the light of day) looks like it will be the big Kahuna of spectral synths.

Alchemy is a good example of a synthesizer capable of Resynthesis, due to its powerful additive synthesis engine (that's its original synthesis engine). Some wavetable synthesizers also perform a kind of resynthesis (again, when their wavetable is additive based as was the case of the PPG/Waldorf. Tone 2 Icarus is a good example of a synthesizer that performs sample analysis and wavetable creation with very good quality. Serum also performs resynthesis through wavetable creation, as do Pigments, and almost all of the wavetable synthesizers. But I personally don't classify that as spectral synthesis.

Arturia Fairlight and Synclavier both perform resynthesis as well (these in a more traditional analysis and resynthesis through additive way). Virsyn Cube (unfortunaley now abandonware) was perhaps the most powerful analysis and resynthesis synth I ever knew. That's what I would classify as a fully featured spectral synth: https://www.virsyn.net/desktop/cube.html

Regarding SkyDust, it has Oscillator Modifiers, which alter the waveform spectrum and work in real-time. That's what brings SlyDust close to Current, IMO. Here's a description:

"Waveform modifiers, also known as waveform shaping, are techniques and tools that enable you to modify the shape and characteristics of a waveform generated by an oscillator. These modifiers provide the means to sculpt and manipulate the timbre of the waveform, allowing you to create complex and distinctive sounds that go beyond the standard waveforms. Within SkyDust, you have access to a variety of modifiers that greatly enhance your ability to manipulate and shape sounds. These modifiers include Silence, Amplitude Offset, Wave Folding, Positive Wave Folding, Clipping, Bit Crusher, Time Shift Up, and Time Shift Down. By utilizing these modifiers, you can expand your creative possibilities and explore new dimensions in sound manipulation."

In current the sub is actually an additive synthesis engine.

That doesn't add anything to what it's being discussed

The modifiers of SkyDust are NOT spectral. The wace shaping is immediately applied to the wave.
In Thorn, Europa or Current, the wave is first decomposed in partials sin waves and then processed. The difference for the user is much more flexibility of processing.

Maybe... But that's just a method. It doesn't change the result. In the end, the result is similar (at least from my POV, based on what I'm getting here). It isn't a Spectral Synth, no matter how much you twist the words. Compare that to what Alchemy and CUBE do.

[Jac459]

Spent 15 minutes, can't see anything related to spectral synthesis.

Yeah.

I generally think of spectral resynthesis when someone mentions spectral.

Spectral resynthesis is usually analysis of the spectral content using FFT and then resynthesised using partials and residuals (filtered noise). As you said above the most common form of reconstruction is using additive synthesis.

I don't see anything like that in Skydust. It's a subtractive/FM hybrid with some fancy sound field capabilities (depending on the version)

Neither do you see anything like that in Current, AFAIK. You need a very powerful and extensive Additive Synthesis Engine to do that.

You can do instantaneous spectral analysis in Msoundfactory with the additive oscillator and modal filter. But it's not dynamic.

Alchemy has a pretty good spectral engine.

I think the upcoming Sumu by Madrona labs (if it ever sees the light of day) looks like it will be the big Kahuna of spectral synths.

Alchemy is a good example of a synthesizer capable of Resynthesis, due to its powerful additive synthesis engine (that's its original synthesis engine). Some wavetable synthesizers also perform a kind of resynthesis (again, when their wavetable is additive based as was the case of the PPG/Waldorf. Tone 2 Icarus is a good example of a synthesizer that performs sample analysis and wavetable creation with very good quality. Serum also performs resynthesis through wavetable creation, as do Pigments, and almost all of the wavetable synthesizers. But I personally don't classify that as spectral synthesis.

Arturia Fairlight and Synclavier both perform resynthesis as well (these in a more traditional analysis and resynthesis through additive way). Virsyn Cube (unfortunaley now abandonware) was perhaps the most powerful analysis and resynthesis synth I ever knew. That's what I would classify as a fully featured spectral synth: https://www.virsyn.net/desktop/cube.html

Regarding SkyDust, it has Oscillator Modifiers, which alter the waveform spectrum and work in real-time. That's what brings SlyDust close to Current, IMO. Here's a description:

"Waveform modifiers, also known as waveform shaping, are techniques and tools that enable you to modify the shape and characteristics of a waveform generated by an oscillator. These modifiers provide the means to sculpt and manipulate the timbre of the waveform, allowing you to create complex and distinctive sounds that go beyond the standard waveforms. Within SkyDust, you have access to a variety of modifiers that greatly enhance your ability to manipulate and shape sounds. These modifiers include Silence, Amplitude Offset, Wave Folding, Positive Wave Folding, Clipping, Bit Crusher, Time Shift Up, and Time Shift Down. By utilizing these modifiers, you can expand your creative possibilities and explore new dimensions in sound manipulation."

In current the sub is actually an additive synthesis engine.

That doesn't add anything to what it's being discussed

The modifiers of SkyDust are NOT spectral. The wace shaping is immediately applied to the wave.
In Thorn, Europa or Current, the wave is first decomposed in partials sin waves and then processed. The difference for the user is much more flexibility of processing.

Maybe... But that's just a method. It doesn't change the result. In the end, the result is similar (at least from my POV, based on what I'm getting here). It isn't a Spectral Synth, no matter how much you twist the words. Compare that to what Alchemy and CUBE do.

You seems to be very confused about synths architecture. Sure you could reproduce with Serum a lot of what Diva does but one is a wavetable synth and the other one is not. Their internal architecture is not the same. You could not care and that's your right but I asked a question specifically about spectral synths...
... and you point me to ... a spacial synth.... And then when I say it to you it is not spectral, you still insist and it takes 2 people to make you understand it is not...

And now you seems to think that Current is not a spectral synth (it 100% is)...

I guess we should stop this very unproductive discussion here my friend...

[martiu]

hi, Loom 2 is spectral, buy now

[fmr]

You seems to be very confused about synths architecture. Sure you could reproduce with Serum a lot of what Diva does but one is a wavetable synth and the other one is not. Their internal architecture is not the same. You could not care and that's your right but I asked a question specifically about spectral synths...
... and you point me to ... a spacial synth.... And then when I say it to you it is not spectral, you still insist and it takes 2 people to make you understand it is not...

And now you seems to think that Current is not a spectral synth (it 100% is)...

I guess we should stop this very unproductive discussion here my friend...

No, man, you are the one confused. There is not such thing as "spacial synth". Point me to anything where "spacial synthesis" is defined. There is NONE. Because "spacial" is NOT a synthesis technique.

You mentioned Serum as a "wavetable" synth. You don't even know what "wavetable" means. Did you know that DX7 was a "wavetable lookup" synth? Did you know that Roland D-50 was also a "wavetable lookup" synth? Same as Kord DW-8000? Wavetable just means that the synth points to a table (a memory location) where the waveforms are stored to produce sound, instead of producing that waveform using other means (like, for example, putting an electrical current in oscillation, as the analog synths did).

The term wavetable has been misused (and became confusing) for decades. The term, in the meaning you are using it, was first used by Wolfgang Palm to define his synthesis technique (first presented in the PPG Wave). And yes, it may be very similar to what DIVA does. The only difference is that, instead of using electrical current, the synth points to wavetables WITH SEVERAL WAVEFORMS, and is able to dynamically scans those wavetables. You can define the oscillator to read just a point in the wavetable (and it behaves just like a regular subtractive synth... DIVA) or you can instruct the oscillator to sweep through the wavetable, reading it dynamically. But that's the only thing the separates your "wavetable" synth from a subtractive synth. Other than that, everything in the synthesis engine is the same.

Read what ChatGPT has to say about that: "In the late-1970s, Michael McNabb and Wolfgang Palm independently developed the multiple wavetable extension on the table-lookup synthesis which was typically used on PPG Wave and known as wavetable sweeping. Later, it was referred to as "multiple wavetable synthesis" by Horner, Beauchamp & Haken 1993."

Also, you are blurring the meaning of "spectral synthesis". I pointed you to TWO synths that are truly spectral synths: CUBE and Alchemy. I can give you another example: HALion (yes, HALion also does Spectral Synthesis):

Now see that video and explain to me how that relates to anything Current does.

[fmr]

Taken from HALion 7 manual:

"Spectral Oscillator Section
The Spectral Oscillator section is available for spectral zones. The spectral oscillator analyzes the spectrum of the loaded sample, that is, the progression of the frequencies, amplitudes, and phases from the sample start to the end of the sample. The analyzed spectrum is used to generate a waveform for playback.

During this re-synthesis, the sample is split into its individual frequency components and overtones. These can then be filtered, amplified, or adjusted in relation to each other. The spectrum becomes independent from the original temporal progression of the sample, which means that the sound is not played faster or slower for higher or lower notes, but instead keeps its timing. Therefore, you can change the playback speed without affecting the pitch.

You can also slow down the playback speed up to the point where only a static waveform is played back. When playing other pitches than the original sample pitch, it is possible to preserve the natural formants of the sound or to tweak them independently to create more artificial variations."

[fmr]

OTOH, Minimal Audio starts to say Current has "Spectral Wavetable Oscillators" (whatever that is), but then, in the manual, what they say is: "two wavetable oscillators that utilize spectral processing to perfectly reproduce a series of waveforms with virtually no aliasing or other artifacts." IDK what they mean by that, but that's certainly NOT spectral synthesis (at least how I studied it).

In the synth, the spectral processing is "Parse, Phaser, Ripple. Data, Nerve Shuffle, Disperse". Didn't find any explanation in the manual about what each of these option actually do. By messing with the controls, they seem to distort the waveform in several ways. SkyDust also has some waveform distortion effects (not so many, yes), and that's where I draw the similarities.

[Jac459]

You seems to be very confused about synths architecture. Sure you could reproduce with Serum a lot of what Diva does but one is a wavetable synth and the other one is not. Their internal architecture is not the same. You could not care and that's your right but I asked a question specifically about spectral synths...
... and you point me to ... a spacial synth.... And then when I say it to you it is not spectral, you still insist and it takes 2 people to make you understand it is not...

And now you seems to think that Current is not a spectral synth (it 100% is)...

I guess we should stop this very unproductive discussion here my friend...

No, man, you are the one confused. There is not such thing as "spacial synth". Point me to anything where "spacial synthesis" is defined. There is NONE. Because "spacial" is NOT a synthesis technique.

You mentioned Serum as a "wavetable" synth. You don't even know what "wavetable" means. Did you know that DX7 was a "wavetable lookup" synth? Did you know that Roland D-50 was also a "wavetable lookup" synth? Same as Kord DW-8000? Wavetable just means that the synth points to a table (a memory location) where the waveforms are stored to produce sound, instead of producing that waveform using other means (like, for example, putting an electrical current in oscillation, as the analog synths did).

The term wavetable has been misused (and became confusing) for decades. The term, in the meaning you are using it, was first used by Wolfgang Palm to define his synthesis technique (first presented in the PPG Wave). And yes, it may be very similar to what DIVA does. The only difference is that, instead of using electrical current, the synth points to wavetables WITH SEVERAL WAVEFORMS, and is able to dynamically scans those wavetables. You can define the oscillator to read just a point in the wavetable (and it behaves just like a regular subtractive synth... DIVA) or you can instruct the oscillator to sweep through the wavetable, reading it dynamically. But that's the only thing the separates your "wavetable" synth from a subtractive synth. Other than that, everything in the synthesis engine is the same.

Read what ChatGPT has to say about that: "In the late-1970s, Michael McNabb and Wolfgang Palm independently developed the multiple wavetable extension on the table-lookup synthesis which was typically used on PPG Wave and known as wavetable sweeping. Later, it was referred to as "multiple wavetable synthesis" by Horner, Beauchamp & Haken 1993."

Also, you are blurring the meaning of "spectral synthesis". I pointed you to TWO synths that are truly spectral synths: CUBE and Alchemy. I can give you another example: HALion (yes, HALion also does Spectral Synthesis):

Now see that video and explain to me how that relates to anything Current does.

Man I never talked about spacial !!! I asked about spectral .... Oh my...
On my last post I mentioned about spacial because when I asked about spectral you directed me to a synth auto-proclaimed "spacial synth" whatever the f**k it means I don't care when this synth has 0% spectral in it and you continue to say it is spectral because it has wave shaping...

About wavetable synthesis... You are mixing a synth having a wavetable and wavetable synthesis.
You can even have synth having wavetable LFOs, that doesn't means they do wavetable synthesis...

Read a bit more...

[Jac459]

OTOH, Minimal Audio starts to say Current has "Spectral Wavetable Oscillators" (whatever that is), but then, in the manual, what they sya is: "two wavetable oscillators that utilize spectral processing to perfectly reproduce a series of waveforms with virtually no aliasing or other artifacts." IDK what they mean by that, but that's certainly NOT spectral synthesis (at least how I studied it).

Well you don't know what it means but a lot of people does...
And by the way what you quote about Halion is exactly the same that what Minimal Audio is saying and what I am saying.
So either the world is confused, either it is you...

[fmr]

OTOH, Minimal Audio starts to say Current has "Spectral Wavetable Oscillators" (whatever that is), but then, in the manual, what they sya is: "two wavetable oscillators that utilize spectral processing to perfectly reproduce a series of waveforms with virtually no aliasing or other artifacts." IDK what they mean by that, but that's certainly NOT spectral synthesis (at least how I studied it).

Well you don't know what it means but a lot of people does...
And by the way what you quote about Halion is exactly the same that what Minimal Audio is saying and what I am saying.
So either the world is confused, either it is you...

"a lot of people" is what "a lot of people" say when they don't know what else to say. In the site, they just mention "spectral effects". Which means that they have several ways of reading the wavetable... very different from "spectral synthesis".

And by the way what you quote about Halion is exactly the same that what Minimal Audio is saying and what I am saying.

Oh really? It's the same? OK then...

[fmr]

Man I never talked about spacial !!! I asked about spectral .... Oh my...
On my last post I mentioned about spacial because when I asked about spectral you directed me to a synth auto-proclaimed "spacial synth" whatever the f**k it means I don't care when this synth has 0% spectral in it and you continue to say it is spectral because it has wave shaping...

About wavetable synthesis... You are mixing a synth having a wavetable and wavetable synthesis.
You can even have synth having wavetable LFOs, that doesn't means they do wavetable synthesis...

Read a bit more...

You never talked about spacial?

You could not care and that's your right but I asked a question specifically about spectral synths...
... and you point me to ... a spacial synth....

I explained before where did I draw the similarities in what Current does and what SkyDust does. It's up to you to read and (if possible) understand.

Regarding wavetable, again you still don't know what wavetable means. Read a bit more...

[Jac459]

...

Somebody else help him, I am out...

[martinjuenke]

We all talk about a special synth.

[martiu]

We all talk about a special synth.

Keep Reaktor out of it.

[briefcasemanx]

Msoundfactory can do spectral synthesis (including spectral analysis of samples), as well as additive, granular, subtractive, physical modelling, FM and multi layered sampling.

All at once if you want.

Everyone sleeps on Msoundfactory.

Msoundfactory doesn't sound that great. It's maybe the funnest synth to mess around with though.