Tone Projects Michelangelo (Handy Amps)

[El°HYM]

Might do that with the demo version, yet also not really fair as Haave doesnt have a dynamic section and is overall not as tweakable. While it does have pretty high oversampling, I am not sure if that is used because of non-itineraries for the 'soft" version of the signal. There is not much further info other than that on the gumroad site and it still seems not fully finished with the current 0.7 version. Still a good EQ and very worth to check out, as it does things different like I said, kind of similar to the Michelangelo.

[dolomick]

Haha yeah I agree. If you look at his input level, it says 0.0dB which goes by the -18 or -12dB RMS standard. So when he turns up the big red aggression knob it's heavily saturated.

But everybody does what they want. Guess he thought it sounded cool.

I pretty much always have it set to -12 or even -15dB on the input (like all TP plugins, holding shift while tweaking any input/output combo will move both in tandem in opposite directions) when I use it on a bus.

Hmmm, I’ve never thought about turning down the input on TP plugins, is there anything inherently wrong with keeping it at 0? I don’t remember seeing anything in the manual about preferred input levels, but now I want to know more. It sounds like the aggression knob gets unusable faster but other than that, anything else we should know? I know UAD stuff should have inputs at -12 or something around there.

[sqigls]

maybe the developer can answer?... Why no external sidechain?

[bmanic]

Haha yeah I agree. If you look at his input level, it says 0.0dB which goes by the -18 or -12dB RMS standard. So when he turns up the big red aggression knob it's heavily saturated.

But everybody does what they want. Guess he thought it sounded cool.

I pretty much always have it set to -12 or even -15dB on the input (like all TP plugins, holding shift while tweaking any input/output combo will move both in tandem in opposite directions) when I use it on a bus.

Hmmm, I’ve never thought about turning down the input on TP plugins, is there anything inherently wrong with keeping it at 0? I don’t remember seeing anything in the manual about preferred input levels, but now I want to know more. It sounds like the aggression knob gets unusable faster but other than that, anything else we should know? I know UAD stuff should have inputs at -12 or something around there.

It's just there as an option for you in case your incoming audio is very hot. Most analogue modeling plugins expect you to have the signal levels between -18dB RMS to -12dB RMS to be within the nominal level. But this is very rarely the case as a lot of synth plugins presets peak right at 0dBFS or even go over it.. and users tend to ignore this fact. Thus it means most of your modeling plugins will be hit way too hot to actually represent the model under "normal circumstances". So unless you are very strict about your gain staging on all of your tracks, it's generally a good idea to make sure your modeling plugins aren't initially driven by signals over -12dB RMS.

So just take a look at the signal level going into Michelangelo. If it's hotter than -12dB then simply use the input gain to lower it. Remember that you can hold SHIFT while tweaking it to automatically get the inverse compensation on the output.

In the case of some of those youtube videos, you could clearly see they were hitting it super hot. Many of the 'Drive' knobs on the individual bands in the Advanced Control panel were blinking red, meaning they were already in the severely saturated range, wrecking havoc on transients and muddying up things (which is something you sometimes want! Nothing wrong with that if it sounds good).

[bmanic]

Here is a quick audio example of Michelangelo when it's pushed only subtly. It's mainly doing harmonic enhancement and widening, no huge EQ changes.

Michelangelo OFF (Google Drive, mp3, 617kb)

Michelangelo ON (Google Drive, mp3, 617kb)

[bmanic]

maybe the developer can answer?... Why no external sidechain?

That would indeed be a very nice feature and hopefully will be added one day. I suspect it didn't get implemented yet due to the complexity of how all the dynamic things are working within the plugin. But yeah, definitely send the feedback to Tone Projects so we get enough people wanting it! Perhaps it can be implemented.

[sqigls]

thanks, hopefully it's common enough a request. i own the other Tone Projects plugs, i know how good they sound.
I'd most probably buy it if it had a sidechain input, but definitely won't if it doesn't. At least not for that price.

[dolomick]

Haha yeah I agree. If you look at his input level, it says 0.0dB which goes by the -18 or -12dB RMS standard. So when he turns up the big red aggression knob it's heavily saturated.

But everybody does what they want. Guess he thought it sounded cool.

I pretty much always have it set to -12 or even -15dB on the input (like all TP plugins, holding shift while tweaking any input/output combo will move both in tandem in opposite directions) when I use it on a bus.

Hmmm, I’ve never thought about turning down the input on TP plugins, is there anything inherently wrong with keeping it at 0? I don’t remember seeing anything in the manual about preferred input levels, but now I want to know more. It sounds like the aggression knob gets unusable faster but other than that, anything else we should know? I know UAD stuff should have inputs at -12 or something around there.

It's just there as an option for you in case your incoming audio is very hot. Most analogue modeling plugins expect you to have the signal levels between -18dB RMS to -12dB RMS to be within the nominal level. But this is very rarely the case as a lot of synth plugins presets peak right at 0dBFS or even go over it.. and users tend to ignore this fact. Thus it means most of your modeling plugins will be hit way too hot to actually represent the model under "normal circumstances". So unless you are very strict about your gain staging on all of your tracks, it's generally a good idea to make sure your modeling plugins aren't initially driven by signals over -12dB RMS.

So just take a look at the signal level going into Michelangelo. If it's hotter than -12dB then simply use the input gain to lower it. Remember that you can hold SHIFT while tweaking it to automatically get the inverse compensation on the output.

In the case of some of those youtube videos, you could clearly see they were hitting it super hot. Many of the 'Drive' knobs on the individual bands in the Advanced Control panel were blinking red, meaning they were already in the severely saturated range, wrecking havoc on transients and muddying up things (which is something you sometimes want! Nothing wrong with that if it sounds good).

Thanks, I suppose this applies to Kelvin too? I don't think it's in either of the manuals but I could be wrong.

Also. I'm unclear on the difference between the Tube Comp dial and the Calibration dial. I couldn't find the Tube Comp dial in the signal flow diagram in the manual. It sounds like the can be made to do similar things, is it the same dial twice in serial?

Re-reading the manual, it mentions Aggression knob and saturation, and tube comp knob mentions compression characteristics, but also mentions saturation in that part of the manual, so it's a bit unclear to me. Any insight on that, or maybe Rune can chime in?

[bmanic]

The gain staging thing applies to most analogue modeled plugins. And it makes sense. If you'd set the nominal levels at 0dBFS it becomes a bit more cumbersome to explore the whole range of tonality in a plugin that is non-linear. The -18dBFS RMS measure is from the +4dBU analogue standard as those two correlate.. thus some companies use that, for instance Acustica Audio. Others set it at -12dBFS RMS because it's a more realistic range for most peoples signal levels.

I have no idea what the tube comp knob actually does. I just twist the knobs and try to see if I like it. My guess is that it tries to approximate what happens with some tube based units where you get a sort of compression effect going.. but that also depends on all the other interactive knobs like the main Aggression knob and the Tube Calibration dial, and how hard in general you are pushing into the plugin.

Yeah, like I've alluded to earlier, this plugin is not a simple thing at all. I've worked with the beta since June and I'm still learning it and exploring new possibilities.

It's worth exploring all the extremes. Like how does it sound if you have very low level incoming audio and instead crank up the calibration and Aggression dials? Or the tube comp? Then do the opposite, hit the plugin at stupidly loud levels, like +20dB on the input and instead set tube calibration to minimum, tube comp to 0% and aggression to zero. It all sounds and behaves differently. It's very interactive and dynamic.. and probably very program dependent too, meaning you get different harmonics over the whole frequency spectra at different audio levels. And probably all of this interactivity changes depending on the knob positions and the EQ itself.

If there ever was one plugin that you should just twist the knobs randomly and see what happens, this is it. I don't think it would be possible to technically really understand how all the interactions work. I have my suspicion that Rune himself may have trouble with this. I've built very highly program dependent and non-linear systems myself and know just how quickly they can get out of hand, meaning you suddenly get lost and don't really know what affects what. If you've ever played with a whole row of guitar pedal distortion units in series you know just how quickly they can get very crazy and interactive. Tweaking one knob at the start of the chain can completely change the sound at the output.

[sqigls]

Out Now! The Michelangelo EQ Special Loyalty Offer.

how the f**k is $20 off a "special loyalty offer"??
people like myself have spend HUNDREDS on your plugins, and the bone you throw is twenty dollars?

any regular joe off the street vs someone who's spent hundreds of dollars on your entire range...
your definition of 'special loyalty' is kinda crap

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

Out Now! The Michelangelo EQ Special Loyalty Offer.

how the f**k is $20 off a "special loyalty offer"??
people like myself have spend HUNDREDS on your plugins, and the bone you throw is twenty dollars?

any regular joe off the street vs someone who's spent hundreds of dollars on your entire range...
your definition of 'special loyalty' is kinda crap

It's not the best loyalty discount I've seen, and the plugin is expensive, but it's better than no discount at all. Me? I'd say give us $20 off per TP plugin owned but of course I'd wish for that! If you think you can get a better price by waiting (Black Friday and Holidays around the corner), then you can gamble and try waiting it out. Or just vote with your wallet and don't buy at all until you get a better price.

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

The above said...I did just purchase. It's pricy, but this is REALLY nice and considering list price is $249, I'm doubting I'll be able to get it for less than $149 this year. I'm really trying to be a LOT more selective about what I'll buy and demo but this has really shone on everything I've tried it on so far and I don't quite have anything that fits this bill.

[Rune L-H]

Out Now! The Michelangelo EQ Special Loyalty Offer.

how the f**k is $20 off a "special loyalty offer"??
people like myself have spend HUNDREDS on your plugins, and the bone you throw is twenty dollars?

any regular joe off the street vs someone who's spent hundreds of dollars on your entire range...
your definition of 'special loyalty' is kinda crap

Noted! To be fair though, the total discount is $100 which is 40% off. For reference, that's the most any Tone Projects plugin has ever been discounted. But I can see that if the focus is on the difference to the general intro offer rather than the absolute discount you’re getting, then it doesn’t look like that much. It’s hard to please everyone with this but I’ll consider if the balance should be different the next time.

The above said...I did just purchase. It's pricy, but this is REALLY nice and considering list price is $249, I'm doubting I'll be able to get it for less than $149 this year. I'm really trying to be a LOT more selective about what I'll buy and demo but this has really shone on everything I've tried it on so far and I don't quite have anything that fits this bill.

I'm really glad to hear you're liking it!

Cheers,
Rune

[perpetual3]

I love this plugin. Just wondering why tube type and spread can’t or shouldn’t be per band?

Out Now! The Michelangelo EQ Special Loyalty Offer.

how the f**k is $20 off a "special loyalty offer"??
people like myself have spend HUNDREDS on your plugins, and the bone you throw is twenty dollars?

any regular joe off the street vs someone who's spent hundreds of dollars on your entire range...
your definition of 'special loyalty' is kinda crap

Noted! To be fair though, the total discount is $100 which is 40% off. For reference, that's the most any Tone Projects plugin has ever been discounted. But I can see that if the focus is on the difference to the general intro offer rather than the absolute discount you’re getting, then it doesn’t look like that much. It’s hard to please everyone with this but I’ll consider if the balance should be different the next time.

The above said...I did just purchase. It's pricy, but this is REALLY nice and considering list price is $249, I'm doubting I'll be able to get it for less than $149 this year. I'm really trying to be a LOT more selective about what I'll buy and demo but this has really shone on everything I've tried it on so far and I don't quite have anything that fits this bill.

I'm really glad to hear you're liking it!

Cheers,
Rune

[Rune L-H]

Also. I'm unclear on the difference between the Tube Comp dial and the Calibration dial. I couldn't find the Tube Comp dial in the signal flow diagram in the manual. It sounds like the can be made to do similar things, is it the same dial twice in serial?

Re-reading the manual, it mentions Aggression knob and saturation, and tube comp knob mentions compression characteristics, but also mentions saturation in that part of the manual, so it's a bit unclear to me. Any insight on that, or maybe Rune can chime in?

Basically Calibration controls the level going into the unit. So you can use it to control the overall amount of harmonics generated and to fine-tune headroom. It also affects other aspects (such as the clipping characteristics) so it's not just level control, but you can pretty much think of it that way.

Tube Comp modifies the dynamic behavior of the tubes. In other words, the saturation happening in the tube circuit is not static, but responds dynamically to the input. With the triode for example, you should be able to hear how transients and overall density is affected differently when tweaking tube comp. It's not typical compression but can have a similar feel. It gets complex rather quickly though because it interacts with many other settings, not least the Triode/Pentode blend.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,
Rune