Live 12 or Bitwig 5.1

[pdxindy]

I doubt the choice matters. Both are great for getting stuff done quickly and for the use cases you describe.

I prefer Bitwig for a number of reasons. Here's some of them:
1 - Side by side Clip Launcher and Arrange. I find it fluid to use both at the same time.
2 - You can open as many projects as you want at once. I use this constantly for housekeeping. I keep two projects open with one the main project and the other a scratchpad/storage area. You can quickly drag-n-drop stuff between projects. For example, if I record an audio or midi part and like it and it doesn't fit the current project but I want to keep it, I just drag it over to the secondary project or a 3rd project to do something with it later. I can do that without playback even being stopped.
3 - The modulation system is incomparable.
4 - CLAP plugin format. The u-he synths are my most used and the CLAP versions can make full use of the per voice modulation system and Bitwig's note expressions.
5 - Stability. Bitwig is the most stable DAW I have ever used.
6 - MPE. Bitwig records the midi channels as played and Live doesn't. There are ways I use my Linnstrument in Bitwig that simply will not work in Live.

I think Live is more intuitive for beginners. I would say that Bitwig is faster to create new content with once you learn it well. I especially like Bitwig because I rarely ever feel dead-ended. By dead-ended, I mean where I am doing something and then I get stuck and have to backtrack. For example, Ableton's Wavetable synth has a limited number of mod sources. Want an extra couple LFO's? Sorry, gotta switch to a 3rd party wavetable synth. In Bitwig, you can add unlimited per voice modulation to any of their instruments. And the modulation sources are far more flexible and powerful.

I also have come to use the track/group and project level modulators in Bitwig a lot. Absurdly powerful and the workflow is so good it feels like cheating

These of course reflect my priorities. If someone said they do tons of slicing and warping of audio, I would say get Live. It's better than Bitwig for that. I hardly do those tasks and mostly make all my own original content. IMO, Bitwig is better for complex sound design and for getting my initial ideas recorded with the least inertia and backtracking.

And like I said to start, you cannot go wrong. They are both excellent.

[billcarroll]

If you're going into Pro Tools, then the answer is YES, buy both. Bitwig 5.1 and Ableton Live 12 are different enough that you'll benefit for both. They are just different paintbrushes for your canvas.

[liquidsound]

Wait for the last version of both DAW to go public and then to do your test.
Don’t rush.

[audiouser720]

I doubt the choice matters. Both are great for getting stuff done quickly and for the use cases you describe.

I prefer Bitwig for a number of reasons. Here's some of them:
1 - Side by side Clip Launcher and Arrange. I find it fluid to use both at the same time.
2 - You can open as many projects as you want at once. I use this constantly for housekeeping. I keep two projects open with one the main project and the other a scratchpad/storage area. You can quickly drag-n-drop stuff between projects. For example, if I record an audio or midi part and like it and it doesn't fit the current project but I want to keep it, I just drag it over to the secondary project or a 3rd project to do something with it later. I can do that without playback even being stopped.
3 - The modulation system is incomparable.
4 - CLAP plugin format. The u-he synths are my most used and the CLAP versions can make full use of the per voice modulation system and Bitwig's note expressions.
5 - Stability. Bitwig is the most stable DAW I have ever used.
6 - MPE. Bitwig records the midi channels as played and Live doesn't. There are ways I use my Linnstrument in Bitwig that simply will not work in Live.

I think Live is more intuitive for beginners. I would say that Bitwig is faster to create new content with once you learn it well. I especially like Bitwig because I rarely ever feel dead-ended. By dead-ended, I mean where I am doing something and then I get stuck and have to backtrack. For example, Ableton's Wavetable synth has a limited number of mod sources. Want an extra couple LFO's? Sorry, gotta switch to a 3rd party wavetable synth. In Bitwig, you can add unlimited per voice modulation to any of their instruments. And the modulation sources are far more flexible and powerful.

I also have come to use the track/group and project level modulators in Bitwig a lot. Absurdly powerful and the workflow is so good it feels like cheating

These of course reflect my priorities. If someone said they do tons of slicing and warping of audio, I would say get Live. It's better than Bitwig for that. I hardly do those tasks and mostly make all my own original content. IMO, Bitwig is better for complex sound design and for getting my initial ideas recorded with the least inertia and backtracking.

And like I said to start, you cannot go wrong. They are both excellent.

Thanks I appreciate your detailed feedback.

Why are you saying warping audio is better in Live than in Bitweg? Is it better quality or just more intuitive? I realise there are many stretch algorithms in Betwig.

[apoclypse]

I just started playing with the Ableton 12 beta and it's banger. The interface changes made a world of difference imo. I just started testing today and banged out a full song within the hour because of the capture function. Made me regret not picking up the Push 3 when it was on sale a few days ago.

I think Ableton is just on a whole new level right now. If you don't care about modulators, CLAP etc, then Ableton is a no-brainer. I say that as someone who owns and loves Bitwig. Bitwig imo has a lot of work to do to come close to what Ableton is doing right now.

[rod_zero]

About the sound, no they don't impart a sound on any recorded audio unless you start warping.

As for using hardware, the new MIDI Control CC device in live is going to make that faster.

Yes, they absolutely don't affect the sound. I was referring to midi, not audio. Midi seems tighter in Bitwig. I do indeed like the new midi control device though in Live.

Syncing external HW has always been tricky, personally I have found better results making Live the slave and a HW sequencer the master. Live 12 also has a new feature to resync HW, so that might also help.

[pdxindy]

Thanks I appreciate your detailed feedback.

Why are you saying warping audio is better in Live than in Bitweg? Is it better quality or just more intuitive? I realise there are many stretch algorithms in Betwig.

I mean the workflow for slicing and warping audio is better in Live... more polished and refined.

Bitwig 5.1 just added the ability to quantize audio. So that is one area that just improved.

I like editing audio more in Bitwig. An audio clip in Live can only be one audio event. An audio clip in Bitwig is a container that can hold one or multiple audio events. So you can edit/chop the audio inside a clip. One of the things this allows is that you can edit a clip directly in the Clip Launcher. In Live, you cannot do that. You have to drag the clip to arrange and cut it into a bunch of individual clips to edit it, the consolidate it back to one clip and then drag it back into the Clip Launcher (Session view in Live).

Since Bitwig audio clips can contain any number of individual events, you can do some cool stuff with that. For example, Bitwig has the Operators and Expressions and they work with the individual audio events inside a clip and not just with notes. So slice a drum loop and then each time the clip loops, each slice can randomly pan, or randomly change gain, or you can select certain events to have chance, or play one event only on the 1st and 4th loops, and another event on the 2nd and 4th, etc., etc.

You can also do audio comping in the clip launcher because it is clip based, not track based like other DAW's. One of the cool things about clip based comping, I can create a drum loop and using the comping, make some variations. Then when I save that clip, it also saves the comped variations in the clip so when I drag it into another project in the future, all the variations are there as comp lanes. It's really tidy to save a bunch of variations all within one clip rather than having to save a bunch of single clips.

[liquidsound]

You can also do audio comping in the clip launcher because it is clip based, not track based like other DAW's. One of the cool things about clip based comping, I can create a drum loop and using the comping, make some variations. Then when I save that clip, it also saves the comped variations in the clip so when I drag it into another project in the future, all the variations are there as comp lanes. It's really tidy to save a bunch of variations all within one clip rather than having to save a bunch of single clips.

You can do the same in Ableton by just dragging the clip, and the Takes travel with it as in Bitwig, into a folder of your choice and reuse it anytime and in any projects.
The advantage, in Ableton, is the ability to solo your individual Takes to know what is inside because you will not be able to remember your Comping lanes in the future or anytime when you have several of them.

The idea to have Comping in the launcher seems a plus but it can be achieved in the Arrange with a more comfortable space and the ability to Solo any Takes and, if I want, to immediately drag another audio right in any Lane and position (spaced or contingent) at leisure beside the fact that Ableton can also do the same with MIDI clip while Bitwig can't.

[Tj Shredder]

As you can afford ProTools, get both.
For me its about inspiration and Bitwig wins that for me by miles. Though I am a Max/MSP programmer. Its still Bitwig…
But I can imagine that there are people who get more inspiration from Live…

Ah, and regarding ProTools, have you tried Reaper?

[Artie Fichelle]

Having most of the DAW like Bitwig, Live, Studio One, Reaper, Ardour, Fl Studio, Reason, Ableton, I think I would wait to see this comparison, when Ableton 12 is here. For me, who uses hardly any audio clips, the Midi manipulation is important. An example: I have a midi clip and want to do a negative harmony out of it. I will choose Reaper that has a script for it. Midi editing inn a fast way I will go to FL Studio. But I might use Ableton 12 for it, for they seem to have picked up the idea from Fl Studio.
Bitwig is fun, but I fear it is an ecosystem in itself, you might be trapped and bound in the end. That said I use a lot of third party plugs which i can use in all of the DAW, that makes interoperation possible, where as if I stick with Bitwigs own stuff, I am trapped.

[SLiC]

Live 12 isn’t out yet and very few people have experience of it, so you may want to wait until the open beta then try both.

As people have jokingly referred to, there are dozens of Bitwig Vs Live threads and videos…there will never be a definitive answer as they both keep changing! Ultimately there are a couple of things that will not change and may be of influence..Max devices for Live for example, or PUSH being developed by Ableton. Pretty much anything else could change for either DAW over time!

[gelly-vapor]

I would say go to bitwig , i have it ,i have an old Mac so my usage of it is limited but bitwig can be the only thing you have to make music , insane modulation , very good fx and instruments and THE GRID is a feal game changer , you have a full modular instrument / fx.bitwig is IMO the best daw at this time.I dont really know Live,but the best thing to do would be to try the demo

[miloszz]

I've been debating whether or not to really commit to Bitwig and buy the renewal to get the 5.1 upgrade or pony up for Live 11>12 upgrade.

Of the things they're adding, Ableton's emphasis on sequencer-y additions is more useful to me than Bitwig's emphasis on adding things to the Grid or incorporating Grid things into regular tracks. I don't like Grid much and have no interest in using the DAW as a sound source, I have awesome instruments and VCV Rack.

Bitwig has clip bouncing. Live 12 adds one click Freeze and Flatten but you still have to duplicate a track first and freeze/flatten the entire track.

Being able to scroll zoom in Ableton on the timeline is better than having to click the slider bars and move the mouse.

I don't like that if you click Bitwig's finder - devices it opens a folder inside with all of Bitwig's devices and then it takes another click to narrow it down to VST3s. The way Ableton's finder is divided up is easier for me to use.

No gridlines behind clips/no adjustable opacity in Bitwig is annoying.

Lots of cool stuff in the Max4Live ecosystem even if I'm never going to learn to build/program Max stuff for myself.

I'm leaning toward continuing on with 12 and selling my old Bitwig license. I feel like I've tried to get into it enough to know it's just not happening for me.

[SLiC]

No gridlines behind clips/no adjustable opacity in Bitwig is annoying.

This gets mentioned a lot on the Bigwig Forums! Sometimes it feels like Bitwig sacrifices QOL/Workflow stuff for 'innovation'. Its one of the things I both love and hate with Bitwig and one of the reasons I use both Live AND Bitwig!

You will also get a lot of people saying I wish Live could do tuis or Bitwig could do that- in most cases they probably can they just work differently and people just havent learned the tools...they are both realty capable DAWS- Live has been around a very long time and is very popular for a reason! Bitwig is still the new kid on the block as far as DAWS go and has come a long way since V1, more people are trying it now it has somewhat matured and some people will switch as Live has a massive user base...but I believe quite a few 'go back' to Live with perhaps less fanfare! Get ready for some 'why I went back to Live 12 from Bigwig' influencer videos, those guys need drama clicks!

One last thing- MAX integration and MAX development seems to have really stepped up a gear (especially with Live 12). Over the next year this may really start to make a difference as if you want all the cool Max devices in your DAW, Live is the only way to go!

[El°HYM]

Cant you even load Bitwig files into Ableton and vice versa now?