Live 12 or Bitwig 5.1

[lengro]

I enjoy both, but tend to use Ableton when I have a melodic idea I want to realise, and Bitwig when I feel adventurous and want to experiment with interesting sound contraptions.

I wouldn't want to be without any of them.

[SLiC]

the best one will be the one you invest the more effort in.

This is true in terms of making music, but if you have any inclination to 'develop' for a wider audience than Bitwig, learning MAX will let you convert them to standalone, and (with RNBO) VSTs or even put them on hardware platforms like a a Pi- no amount of effort will get that done with the Grid. Max devises can also be sold and installed quite easily with their own custom GUIs, I haven't seen anything like that with the Grid, its very much an internal to Bitwig thing.

[Stan Navi]

There are many Max4Live devices out there, but really useful not more than 10.

[eclipxe]

There are many Max4Live devices out there, but really useful not more than 10.

Maybe for you, but I don’t think that’s a blanket statement for everyone (I use hundreds of Max devices). In fact the 10 that you find useful are probably different than the 10 the next person finds useful. That’s the beautify - the long tail of devices that can customize to any persons preference/use case.

[ghettosynth]

There are many Max4Live devices out there, but really useful not more than 10.

Maybe for you, but I don’t think that’s a blanket statement for everyone (I use hundreds of Max devices). In fact the 10 that you find useful are probably different than the 10 the next person finds useful. That’s the beautify - the long tail of devices that can customize to any persons preference/use case.

Yeah, but I know a few people who feel as Stan does. A good friend of mine uses Live and I don't think he cares much about M4L devices to any great degree. I find it essential and I have maintained a full Max license for some time now. I'm sticking with Live because of M4L and Push. Together they make the experience better for how I use it. That said, I agree with the general consensus that the grid is better for how most people would want to use expanded modulation sources. In other words, if you aren't the type to get into tools like Reaktor or Max already, then you might not find M4L as useful. Don't buy into a pipe dream, buy into what you can use in the foreseeable future.

Full disclosure, I do not own any MPE controllers.

[pdxindy]

I prefer Bitwig because of the following reasons:
1. Bitwig runs natively well on Linux. Live doesn't.
2. The Grid is easier and better performance than M4L.
3. Modulation is part of the system not through another layer (like M4L in Live).
4. Bitwig performance is much better than Live on Windows.
5. Shortcuts are more logical and easier to remember in Bitwig.

There are shortcomings in Bitwig though and Live is better with:
1. Grooves.
2. Buying versions upgrades is better than yearly updates.

I personally like Bitwig colours and environment. The arrangement view and mixer still better than Live as I can see in the mixer which plugins in the track.

2 - The Grid and M4L are very different things. Max is a coding platform and the Grid is a software modular. M4L is amazing for what it is, but I had no interest to become a coder when I was using Live. I use the Grid constantly because it's easy.

3 - Bitwig's modulation system can be per voice. M4L modulation is only global. So even with commercial M4L modulation purchases, it doesn't come close in functionality to Bitwig modulation. And then the modulation workflow in Live is very clunky compared to Bitwig. Bitwig's modulation is unmatched.

Because there is no DAW wide modulation system, the Live instruments have built-in mod matrixes. But they are limited as far as mod sources. For example Wavetable has 3 Env's and 2 LFO's and that's it. No MSEG's, no type of step or sequenced modulation and so on. This is why when I used to use Live, I mostly used VST synths.

Bitwig by comparison, has the DAW wide modulation system. Each instrument doesn't need to have its own sources cause the user can add as many per voice modulation sources as they want. And the modulators are far more flexible and powerful that what is included in the Live instruments. You have MSEG's, Steps sequencer, the unique ParSeq-8, user drawn curves for the keytrack modulator, wavetable LFO, Channel-16, Vector-4, Note Sidechain, Random, Voice Stack Spread, etc., etc., etc.

5 - The shortcuts are assignable. (In Live they are not)

6 - Hybrid tracks are so useful! And Bounce in Place, I really would not want to do without that. Bounce in Place alone is more useful to me that anything I would miss in Live.

Speaking of... there are 2 things I miss from Live.
1 - Midi Step Input.
2 - Groove Pool

[xbitz]

but the morphing (envelope, device, track, etc.) is present in Ableton Live as an m4l device family and missing from Bitwig
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... 3D763DDCDA
I wouldn't say modulation is über alles(above all) or can put various VST plugins into m4l devices and it's good to ask for a fair price for them
https://elisabethhomeland.gumroad.com/l/qymjsa

[liquidsound]

but the morphing (envelope, device, track, etc.) is present in Ableton Live as an m4l device family and missing from Bitwig
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... 3D763DDCDA
I wouldn't say modulation is über alles(above all) or can put various VST plugins into m4l devices and it's good to ask for a fair price for them
https://elisabethhomeland.gumroad.com/l/qymjsa

As I said… v12 is just the beginning of a new Ableton horizon.
And it’s not even out yet

Per voice modulation…
It will be available everywhere in the near future thanks to CLAP and just imagine CLAP4L with M4L tools

[SLiC]

Bitwig has easier to use modulation baked in, Live has separate rack tools for modulation (100's of different types but you are often opening new max devices, its not baked in).

Live has better automation in my opinion, insert automation shapes etc...I often go automation rather than modulation as it seems more controllable/precise to line up with musical events and the shapes (and then the ability to move them around and reshape them) are a great help.



Neither Bitwig or Live has ARA yet, but I do find selecting Melodyne as the sample editor in Live a little more continent.

Live 12 Browser Tagging and Filtered Searches, Sound Similarity Search and Browser History. ...Vs. Bitwig 'Pop Up' browser...could it be Live will win the browser war!

[liquidsound]

Bitwig has easier to use modulation baked in, Live has separate rack tools for modulation (100's of different types but you are often opening new max devices, its not baked in).

Live has better automation in my opinion, insert automation shapes etc...I often go automation rather than modulation as it seems more controllable/precise to line up with musical events and the shapes (and then the ability to move them around and reshape them) are a great help.



Neither Bitwig or Live has ARA yet, but I do find selecting Melodyne as the sample editor in Live a little more continent.

Live 12 Browser Tagging and Filtered Searches, Sound Similarity Search and Browser History. ...Vs. Bitwig 'Pop Up' browser...could it be Live will win the browser war!

I Live you can record your modulations as automations and then fine tune as you like etc.

[SLiC]

Bitwig has easier to use modulation baked in, Live has separate rack tools for modulation (100's of different types but you are often opening new max devices, its not baked in).

Live has better automation in my opinion, insert automation shapes etc...I often go automation rather than modulation as it seems more controllable/precise to line up with musical events and the shapes (and then the ability to move them around and reshape them) are a great help.



Neither Bitwig or Live has ARA yet, but I do find selecting Melodyne as the sample editor in Live a little more continent.

Live 12 Browser Tagging and Filtered Searches, Sound Similarity Search and Browser History. ...Vs. Bitwig 'Pop Up' browser...could it be Live will win the browser war!

I Live you can record your modulations as automations and then fine tune as you like etc.

Yes, 2 different types of thing- I prefer automation (drawing in or recorded) if I am working on a normal song where I want it to sound the same every time I hit play! Modulation of the type in Bitwig is great for 'modular' type experimentation and generative stuff or subtle analogue drifts...different things, another reason to own both

[liquidsound]

Bitwig has easier to use modulation baked in, Live has separate rack tools for modulation (100's of different types but you are often opening new max devices, its not baked in).

Live has better automation in my opinion, insert automation shapes etc...I often go automation rather than modulation as it seems more controllable/precise to line up with musical events and the shapes (and then the ability to move them around and reshape them) are a great help.



Neither Bitwig or Live has ARA yet, but I do find selecting Melodyne as the sample editor in Live a little more continent.

Live 12 Browser Tagging and Filtered Searches, Sound Similarity Search and Browser History. ...Vs. Bitwig 'Pop Up' browser...could it be Live will win the browser war!

I Live you can record your modulations as automations and then fine tune as you like etc.

Yes, 2 different types of thing- I prefer automation (drawing in or recorded) if I am working on a normal song where I want it to sound the same every time I hit play! Modulation of the type in Bitwig is great for 'modular' type experimentation and generative stuff or subtle analogue drifts...different things, another reason to own both

What I mean (and perhaps you did understand) is that, for example, I've got an ADSR Envelope on the Diva Filter Cutoff or an LFO, the ADSR Envelope or LFO is also recorded/printed as an Automation Lane and can be adjusted after you finish recording like any other automation envelopes in its own Lane.
That's something I've never see anywhere else (FL perhaps?).

http://maxforlive.com/library/device/45 ... n-recorder

[miloszz]

If you ever start using plugins that are made for the CLAP format, you’ll find that adding per-voice modulation to that plugin is a breeze. I’d been requesting more envelopes for Diva for years, now I don’t have to request that, because I can add it myself.

I never bothered installing CLAP versions of anything but I went back and installed Diva CLAP and yeah gotta give big points to Bitwig for this with analog emulations that don't have a ton of modulation options.

[SLiC]

Bitwig has easier to use modulation baked in, Live has separate rack tools for modulation (100's of different types but you are often opening new max devices, its not baked in).

Live has better automation in my opinion, insert automation shapes etc...I often go automation rather than modulation as it seems more controllable/precise to line up with musical events and the shapes (and then the ability to move them around and reshape them) are a great help.



Neither Bitwig or Live has ARA yet, but I do find selecting Melodyne as the sample editor in Live a little more continent.

Live 12 Browser Tagging and Filtered Searches, Sound Similarity Search and Browser History. ...Vs. Bitwig 'Pop Up' browser...could it be Live will win the browser war!

I Live you can record your modulations as automations and then fine tune as you like etc.

Yes, 2 different types of thing- I prefer automation (drawing in or recorded) if I am working on a normal song where I want it to sound the same every time I hit play! Modulation of the type in Bitwig is great for 'modular' type experimentation and generative stuff or subtle analogue drifts...different things, another reason to own both

What I mean (and perhaps you did understand) is that, for example, I've got an ADSR Envelope on the Diva Filter Cutoff or an LFO, the ADSR Envelope or LFO is also recorded/printed as an Automation Lane and can be adjusted after you finish recording like any other automation envelopes in its own Lane.
That's something I've never see anywhere else (FL perhaps?).

http://maxforlive.com/library/device/45 ... n-recorder

Gotch…no I hadn’t seen that, very clever! Best of both worlds!

[liquidsound]

Bitwig has easier to use modulation baked in, Live has separate rack tools for modulation (100's of different types but you are often opening new max devices, its not baked in).

Live has better automation in my opinion, insert automation shapes etc...I often go automation rather than modulation as it seems more controllable/precise to line up with musical events and the shapes (and then the ability to move them around and reshape them) are a great help.



Neither Bitwig or Live has ARA yet, but I do find selecting Melodyne as the sample editor in Live a little more continent.

Live 12 Browser Tagging and Filtered Searches, Sound Similarity Search and Browser History. ...Vs. Bitwig 'Pop Up' browser...could it be Live will win the browser war!

I Live you can record your modulations as automations and then fine tune as you like etc.

Yes, 2 different types of thing- I prefer automation (drawing in or recorded) if I am working on a normal song where I want it to sound the same every time I hit play! Modulation of the type in Bitwig is great for 'modular' type experimentation and generative stuff or subtle analogue drifts...different things, another reason to own both

What I mean (and perhaps you did understand) is that, for example, I've got an ADSR Envelope on the Diva Filter Cutoff or an LFO, the ADSR Envelope or LFO is also recorded/printed as an Automation Lane and can be adjusted after you finish recording like any other automation envelopes in its own Lane.
That's something I've never see anywhere else (FL perhaps?).

http://maxforlive.com/library/device/45 ... n-recorder

Gotch…no I hadn’t seen that, very clever! Best of both worlds!

If BW could record/print the Modulators... but I guess it would be impossible "per-voice" unfortunately, and that's probably why it is not implemented.