Live 12 or Bitwig 5.1

[SLiC]

That’s why I also like the generate modules in live 12, it just a simple way to print generated drums, notes or chords into the piano roll and then you have a foundation to tweak into a song.

[EnGee]

I agree the Grid is easier and has more direct integration, but to be fair that is because it is far more limited than MAX, it is like having Reaktor in a DAW which is cool- but I also have Reaktor!

I have a few more reasons to use Live (just basing this on 11 as haven't tried 12 yet)

1. Max Devices availability (7000 of them you can just download and play with)
2. Midi Comping (come on Bitwig!)
3. I like grid lines I can see! (I prefer the Live interface overall)
4. Retrospective capture
5. I actually use the audio to midi conversion!
6. The content in Suite (everything you need)
7. PUSH integration ( its 100x better than using it with Bitwig as every device, pack and fx is mapped to knobs with nice graphical feedback, you really can use it standalone without looking at the computer screen for a hardware experience)

Integrated find similar sounds/pre-sets may make this list in 12 as may better piano roll editing. lets see!

Yes, Max devices are wonderful and there are so many of them (free and commercial). I bought several myself and installed some free ones. The problem they are not that CPU efficient. In fact they are the most CPU hungry I have seen. I own mid range Ryzen 5800x and on Windows, Live perferms the worst among DAWs I have. On Mac though (M1) it has a better performance.

I don't really use Midi comping, Retrospective capture or Push. So, your usage and workflow is very different from mine I guess.

I do agree though that there is a bigger selection of good quality content in Live. Well, in Bitwig they are not bad at all. For me, they are enough really.

The controllers setup in Bitwig is great for my hardware. I have Novation Launchkey 49 as my main midi controller and KK M32 as a mini one. MODX works fine and I can also configure it as a controller with its knobs and sliders, but I don't need it.

2 - The Grid and M4L are very different things. Max is a coding platform and the Grid is a software modular. M4L is amazing for what it is, but I had no interest to become a coder when I was using Live. I use the Grid constantly because it's easy.

Yes sure they are different. I personally like Reaktor better than Max (Max seems more complex). I thought to delve into learning M4L and delve into coding if necessary (I have some programming background in Java, ...etc), but I realize, like you, that I don't want to concentrate on low level construction of devices and absolutely not coding when I just want to make some music!

I find the Grid has excellent balance between creativity and fast results. It is somehow like PhasePlant but with more choices and selections. It also can do effects only and even midi devices if I'm not wrong (sorry I haven't tried yet midi or effect in the Grid, so not sure). The performance is very good if I keep it reasonably simple and not that complex. My goal is to make rich sounds and some sound effects. I'm not into generative things, so just a "classic" patches. I think I can do that with some slight random modulations.

After some learning time, I intend to use my both guitars (classic and electric) in my tracks. So, I won't depend only on synths. The real instruments give an extra realistic dimension to the music, so that what I want to concentrate on.

Lastly, I'm on Linux now! So, Bitwig makes the experience I can achieve very easy and enjoyable. With few things to concentrate on, makes it more manageable with better results and finished tracks

[Milkman]

Bitwig all the way.

Old half-ass Live user here - this is my personal opinion. I hated live 15 years ago, I hated it 10 years ago, and I hated it 2 years ago, which was the last time I plan to mess with Live. I do not like its interface, i found the workflow unintuitive and too different from other DAWs, and I honestly just gave up. I have 20+ years experience with Cubase, a few years with old Fruity Loops, but the Live UI just killed it for me.

With Bitwig, as an old Cubase + etc, user, I found the UI, configuration and routing system very intuitive and practical, I found the project navigation style and mouse gestures more useful and quick, and the ability to sandbox plug-ins with various levels of security is indispensable. Content and devices included with Bitwig are also nice. Opening up Bitwig to get started on a day's music session makes me excited and happy, where opening cubase was beginning to feel stressful and gross. (the gross part is because of customer service)
Edit: this was about Bitwig and Live, not cubase. Sorry, knee-jerk.

[liquidsound]

Bitwig all the way.

Old half-ass Live user here - this is my personal opinion. I hated live 15 years ago, I hated it 10 years ago, and I hated it 2 years ago, which was the last time I plan to mess with Live. I do not like its interface, i found the workflow unintuitive and too different from other DAWs, and I honestly just gave up. I have 20+ years experience with Cubase, a few years with old Fruity Loops, but the Live UI just killed it for me.

With Bitwig, as an old Cubase + etc, user, I found the UI, configuration and routing system very intuitive and practical, I found the project navigation style and mouse gestures more useful and quick, and the ability to sandbox plug-ins with various levels of security is indispensable. Content and devices included with Bitwig are also nice. Opening up Bitwig to get started on a day's music session makes me excited and happy, where opening cubase was beginning to feel stressful and gross. (the gross part is because of customer service)
Edit: this was about Bitwig and Live, not cubase. Sorry, knee-jerk.

"Running From" and "Running To" is immensely different...

[Milkman]

Bitwig all the way.

Old half-ass Live user here - this is my personal opinion. I hated live 15 years ago, I hated it 10 years ago, and I hated it 2 years ago, which was the last time I plan to mess with Live. I do not like its interface, i found the workflow unintuitive and too different from other DAWs, and I honestly just gave up. I have 20+ years experience with Cubase, a few years with old Fruity Loops, but the Live UI just killed it for me.

With Bitwig, as an old Cubase + etc, user, I found the UI, configuration and routing system very intuitive and practical, I found the project navigation style and mouse gestures more useful and quick, and the ability to sandbox plug-ins with various levels of security is indispensable. Content and devices included with Bitwig are also nice. Opening up Bitwig to get started on a day's music session makes me excited and happy, where opening cubase was beginning to feel stressful and gross. (the gross part is because of customer service)
Edit: this was about Bitwig and Live, not cubase. Sorry, knee-jerk.

"Running From" and "Running To" is immensely different...

This is true.

[syntonica]

Yes, please!

The Cases for Live:
-if you're a programmer type, then M4L may be for you.
-the GUI is butt ugly, expanding on the whole boxy Max aesthetic.
-some really terrific native plugins

The Case for Bitwig:
-far better looking GUI, although key shortcuts are necessary to save miles worth of mouse cursor travel.
-if you don't mind wiring a few bits and bobs together, the Grid is the beez kneez.
-while the native plugins may not be as good as Live, adding modulation is built-in and easier than falling off a log.

For me, it was hate at first sight with Live, but I can see going steady with Bitwig with an eye towards marriage later.

[liquidsound]

Yes, please!

The Cases for Live:
-if you're a programmer type, then M4L may be for you.
-the GUI is butt ugly, expanding on the whole boxy Max aesthetic.
-some really terrific native plugins

The Case for Bitwig:
-far better looking GUI, although key shortcuts are necessary to save miles worth of mouse cursor travel.
-if you don't mind wiring a few bits and bobs together, the Grid is the beez kneez.
-while the native plugins may not be as good as Live, adding modulation is built-in and easier than falling off a log.

For me, it was hate at first sight with Live, but I can see going steady with Bitwig with an eye towards marriage later.

The Ableton community is going to miss you so much!

[syntonica]

The Ableton community is going to miss you so much!

Thank goodness that I didn't mention performance...

[Atlatnesiti]

What a joke of the post.
It is nothing else but fueling hatred comments on both sides of the fence.

[Scotty]

No hatred here. I chose Bitwig simply because Live was so deep with features I was intimidated by it. I felt like Bitwig was limited but similar enough to Live that I could derive some benefits of the scene based workflow without a deep plunge into the ocean Live offered. I was looking to explore a new approach to augment Cubase. The best DAW is the one you use. I am thankful for the choices we have available.

[Artie Fichelle]

I will probably switch from Bitwig to Live 12. I never used Live alot, but yesterday I dug into it and noticed how good it represents my workflow. I usually sit at the keyboard and play something improvising, so a capture function is really good for me. Then come the midi editing, structuring and so forth. With Live it so intuitive and with Live 12 it will be really fast to get a piece in no time. And then come the effects and drawing of modulations later before mixing.
I will not sell Bitwig of course, but for me the new Live upgrade is the turning point.

[liquidsound]

The Ableton community is going to miss you so much!

Thank goodness that I didn't mention performance...

Nooo! With don’t want to hear about your private life!

[Hanz Meyzer]

Well, it is a bit sad. Bitwig has this extremely clever and flexible dsp and modulation structure, but they simply refuse to add any comfort to Pianoroll or let’s say composition tools. Even quantization in bitwig just is rudimentary. Ableton now has lot more to offer here, actually most other daws have, s1, cubase, logic. Maybe its because most of the bitwig Team is deep into Modular stuff? Also not a single daw vendor seem to be able to actually improve these early 80s concepts… it’s funny that Renoise - though being a tracker - still has a lot of simple and helpful features for writing down notes, and no other vendor even has a clue what is missing here. E.g. on the fly step-editing parts, switching step width using shortcuts, play all notes at playhead position, or using step width 0 for reentering notes in context until you like it.

I would call this a lack of conceptual ideas… maybe stubbornness? I really wonder. Maybe to be innovative, you have to break your own barriers first, or something.

[machinesworking]

I will probably switch from Bitwig to Live 12. I never used Live alot, but yesterday I dug into it and noticed how good it represents my workflow. I usually sit at the keyboard and play something improvising, so a capture function is really good for me. Then come the midi editing, structuring and so forth. With Live it so intuitive and with Live 12 it will be really fast to get a piece in no time. And then come the effects and drawing of modulations later before mixing.
I will not sell Bitwig of course, but for me the new Live upgrade is the turning point.

That's where I'm at. I really do like Bitwig, but lately I've been collaborating with a buddy whose a die hard Live user, and some things that used to be better in Bitwig are now better in Live. The browser, especially with Live 12 right around the corner is just better. I can't stand what they did with the browser in 5, it's never my workflow to type in a plugin instruments name and wade through patches for that plug in, or with similar names that plugin. Who thought that was a good idea? Retrospective MIDI capture is something I use all the time.
Beyond that I really like Bitwig and it's now tight integration with reaper and the ability to transfer projects between them, the Moss scripts for both, CLAP and the whole ecosystem, it's really tempting to just go whole hog into that world. I feel more comfortable setting up control surface support for VSTi's in Bitwig, it's adamantly cross platform, you could do most all of this in Linux if you desired.

Lives ubiquitousness and at this point in time, better seeming Browser is winning for me though.

[JerGoertz]

Get both. Then rewire Bitwig into Live, and inside that Bitwig, rewire an instance of Live.