Live 12 or Bitwig 5.1

[Trancit]

Yes, Max devices are wonderful and there are so many of them (free and commercial). I bought several myself and installed some free ones. The problem they are not that CPU efficient. In fact they are the most CPU hungry I have seen. I own mid range Ryzen 5800x and on Windows, Live perferms the worst among DAWs I have. On Mac though (M1) it has a better performance.

Your thoughts inspired me to make my own little tests and to anticipate the result:

Yep... Max4 Life is ridiculous bad in CPU and RAM usage!

I just used simple LFO´s and made a test track with a single sustained note and simple FM synths...
on a Ryzen 9 5900X with 32gigs of RAM

In Bitwig I took FM-4 and added 10 classic LFO´s to 10 different parameters...
I don´t think this is an overdriven example...
I duplicated this track 24 times (2 x 12 as I´ve got a 12 core CPU) and played it back...

About 4% CPU usage with in total (including system) 6.12 gigs of RAM in use...

Now I did the same in Ableton with Operator and 10 of the standard M4L LFOs...
Again 24 tracks...

Ridiculous 37% CPU usage with a whooping 21.5 gigs of RAM!!!

Duplicating the tracks has already taken lots of time...

Just to make sure that Bitwig isn´t over efficient in this regard I took FL Studio which has internal LFO´s as well (modulated Sytrus) and repeated everything...

A little worse than Bitwig in CPU (6%) but far better RAM usage (4.17 gigs)...

So no... Bitwig isn´t doing overly well... Ableton just does ridiculous bad!!

[pdxindy]

and in Bitwig, you can't export a single MIDI clip.

You can open a separate project, drag the midi clip into it and export, but even then, it doesn't export all data. Midi import/export in Bitwig truly sucks. Bitwig may not address this.

What they have done is develop the DAW Project format. Bitwig projects can be exported as DAW Project. Studio One now also supports the format so projects can be sent back and forth between Bitwig and Studio One. And because the format is open, someone wrote a script so projects can be moved from Bitwig to Reaper and back as well.

The format includes midi, audio, automation, track info, plugin states. Of course DAW specific devices are ignored.

[PieBerger]

and in Bitwig, you can't export a single MIDI clip.

You can open a separate project, drag the midi clip into it and export, but even then, it doesn't export all data. Midi import/export in Bitwig truly sucks. Bitwig may not address this.

What they have done is develop the DAW Project format. Bitwig projects can be exported as DAW Project. Studio One now also supports the format so projects can be sent back and forth between Bitwig and Studio One. And because the format is open, someone wrote a script so projects can be moved from Bitwig to Reaper and back as well.

The format includes midi, audio, automation, track info, plugin states. Of course DAW specific devices are ignored.

Copying to a new project is my current workaround, which fortunately I don't need to make use of very often. It's still a bit disappointing that they dropped the ball so hard on this one though, makes you wonder if there is some other screaming howler that's just waiting in the wings to pounce on us!

[zerocrossing]

Well, I went ahead and bought another year of updates to Bitwig, and boy is 5.1 ugly!

[liquidsound]

Yes, Max devices are wonderful and there are so many of them (free and commercial). I bought several myself and installed some free ones. The problem they are not that CPU efficient. In fact they are the most CPU hungry I have seen. I own mid range Ryzen 5800x and on Windows, Live perferms the worst among DAWs I have. On Mac though (M1) it has a better performance.

Your thoughts inspired me to make my own little tests and to anticipate the result:

Yep... Max4 Life is ridiculous bad in CPU and RAM usage!

I just used simple LFO´s and made a test track with a single sustained note and simple FM synths...
on a Ryzen 9 5900X with 32gigs of RAM

In Bitwig I took FM-4 and added 10 classic LFO´s to 10 different parameters...
I don´t think this is an overdriven example...
I duplicated this track 24 times (2 x 12 as I´ve got a 12 core CPU) and played it back...

About 4% CPU usage with in total (including system) 6.12 gigs of RAM in use...

Now I did the same in Ableton with Operator and 10 of the standard M4L LFOs...
Again 24 tracks...

Ridiculous 37% CPU usage with a whooping 21.5 gigs of RAM!!!

Duplicating the tracks has already taken lots of time...

Just to make sure that Bitwig isn´t over efficient in this regard I took FL Studio which has internal LFO´s as well (modulated Sytrus) and repeated everything...

A little worse than Bitwig in CPU (6%) but far better RAM usage (4.17 gigs)...

So no... Bitwig isn´t doing overly well... Ableton just does ridiculous bad!!

Do it without LFO.
I think it’s Operator (it’s a beast compared to others)

And, you should do testing with real projects: what you actually implement in your music, and then test other DAWs.

These unrealistic tests are useless unless they reflect your music needs.
I’ve seen people loading up legions of Diva for testing. Nice, but then their music is perhaps 10 tracks in total

I’m not saying you are one of those ones but if I were you, as I did for myself, I produce in one and then a reproduce in the others.
I did this many times to understand my workflow, pros and cons, in each one, and that’s when I decided to move back to Live after couple of years in Bitwig.

It’s personal, and efficiency is attached to the way you produce and not to “pile up tools” in a manner that you would never use in real production environment.

[liquidsound]

^^^ The problem with Live is not with the plugin scan, but with how it saves the project in such a way that you cannot reload it. The backup folder only contains the last 10 saves, so you can't even save frequently because you don't know from which point it will not be able to reload the project.

Absolutely nonsense.

[enCiphered]

Well, I went ahead and bought another year of updates to Bitwig, and boy is 5.1 ugly!

Eat more carrots

[liquidsound]

Well, I went ahead and bought another year of updates to Bitwig, and boy is 5.1 ugly!

Eat more carrots

that’s embedded in the interface already

[metaside]

Hold up, what? I don't like the sounds of that at all. I appreciate the heads up early, this doesn't sound like the type of surprise I'd love to happen upon myself in the future unawares.

To be fair, I think it mostly depends on what plugins you use. And I read somewhere that Ableton Support will help you in cases like that but haven't tried it yet. It was just my personal experience and made my decision easier. YMMV. I still love Live btw, stuff like warp markers, the capture function and audio-to-MIDI is great, just not updating this time. Both are great but imperfect DAWs imho.

Edit: As an example, if I wanted to make a sound-design-heavy DNB track, I would reach for Bitwig, if I wanted to play on a controller a bit without recording something specific in mind I might reach for Ableton because of the Capture function, same if I need to use audio warp markers.

[enCiphered]

Well, I went ahead and bought another year of updates to Bitwig, and boy is 5.1 ugly!

Eat more carrots

that’s embedded in the interface already

Hehe, thats true

[xbitz]

^^^ The problem with Live is not with the plugin scan, but with how it saves the project in such a way that you cannot reload it. The backup folder only contains the last 10 saves, so you can't even save frequently because you don't know from which point it will not be able to reload the project.

Absolutely nonsense.

which part, open the project, and say goodbye

Képernyőfotó 2023-12-08 - 21.10.12.png

Obviously, there are no m4l devices yet that are labeled as AL12 compatible, but this gave me PTSD I've stopped using AL9 just because of this

[liquidsound]

^^^ The problem with Live is not with the plugin scan, but with how it saves the project in such a way that you cannot reload it. The backup folder only contains the last 10 saves, so you can't even save frequently because you don't know from which point it will not be able to reload the project.

Absolutely nonsense.

which part, open the project, and say goodbye
Képernyőfotó 2023-12-08 - 21.10.12.png
Obviously, there are no m4l devices yet that are labeled as AL12 compatible, but this gave me PTSD

So… that’s the first time happening to you? If it is, you are making it the rule rather than the exception.
I’ve never seen that thing in 15 years of usage (PTSD looking for sure ).

[SLiC]

^^^ The problem with Live is not with the plugin scan, but with how it saves the project in such a way that you cannot reload it. The backup folder only contains the last 10 saves, so you can't even save frequently because you don't know from which point it will not be able to reload the project.

Absolutely nonsense.

which part, open the project, and say goodbye
Képernyőfotó 2023-12-08 - 21.10.12.png
Obviously, there are no m4l devices yet that are labeled as AL12 compatible, but this gave me PTSD I've stopped using AL9 just because of this

Is that AL9 = Live 9? I have never seen that pop up box before.

[EnGee]

and in Bitwig, you can't export a single MIDI clip.

You can open a separate project, drag the midi clip into it and export, but even then, it doesn't export all data. Midi import/export in Bitwig truly sucks. Bitwig may not address this.

Do you mean if I have midi tracks with automation, I can only export midi (all tracks in one midi file), but without the automation?

I haven't used any export in Bitwig! As I start and finish there, but sometimes I like to export midi data and continue in Cubase or Logic.

It's still not a show stopper for me, but it's strange that they didn't nail that after all this time! I'm going to test it today and see how bad it is.

[pdxindy]

and in Bitwig, you can't export a single MIDI clip.

You can open a separate project, drag the midi clip into it and export, but even then, it doesn't export all data. Midi import/export in Bitwig truly sucks. Bitwig may not address this.

Do you mean if I have midi tracks with automation, I can only export midi (all tracks in one midi file), but without the automation?

I haven't used any export in Bitwig! As I start and finish there, but sometimes I like to export midi data and continue in Cubase or Logic.

It's still not a show stopper for me, but it's strange that they didn't nail that after all this time! I'm going to test it today and see how bad it is.

Now, since the release of DAW Project, I would export to DAW Project, open it in Reaper and use Reaper's midi export functions to export midi files. Assuming it is not a bug ridden new feature, that will work much better than trying to export midi from Bitwig directly.