Live 12 or Bitwig 5.1

[EnGee]

Let's say there is no Bitwig! Would I use Live?

Maybe! I might use the standard version (no Max) which I believe it has a better performance, but that on Windows. On Mac ... oh man! It's getting confusing! I think I did a good choice by choosing Linux/Bitwig now! It's nice to have one choice and keep concentrating on making music!

Again, I haven't faced performance problems with Mac/Live. It is just not good on Windows. Changing the presets of Massive X or new Korg synths is pathetic! CPU jumps to 200% or more then getting down slowly every time I click the next button!

There is a workaround to improve Live performance (a little) and that by changing the performance of my nVidia card to maximum! But I have a great performance in Bitwig without doing anything extra! Even my Windows is with recommended power settings (not high performance), so why not make my music making more relaxing for me and my PC?
Still if I'm forced to use Ableton Live, I would use it (if it brings peace to the world or change climate or something).

[liquidsound]

I understand a beginner trying to get into music production but for someone that has produced for years and has established its own tools, style and workflow, it should be extremely easy to decide on a DAW once the workflow has been explored.

CPU issues are quick to discover while testing with your own music, as you have produced so far, and so, test to failure are overshooting.

You are creating unrealistic situations that your music production would never face as you can easily test BY PRODUCING your music

I get your point but you’re literally making up a scenario to give it credibility. I’ve been using Live since 2003, I first started doing CPU tests because I noticed I could not use plugins like Reaktor in Live without a lot of planning and skimming here and there. None of that was an issue in Logic and DP.
Only the latest Mac Studio I bought completely solves all CPU issues with Live. Yes you can get by with lower CPU overhead plugins, and people since Suite was introduced have gone all embedded instruments etc. but again none of this was ever an issue in Logic, DP, Cubase etc. etc.

There is 100% a trade off with Live, Bitwig, the MPC’s, and other non pre-rendering secondary buffer having DAWs in terms of raw power, but all of us who use them accept that for all the advantages. I love DP as you all well know but adding an instrument to a project while the sequence is going always creates a momentary dropout in the audio and it never does in Live among other things that Lives high overhead affords.

I will always be interested in the limits of the DAWs considering that I don’t always produce the same kind of music.

Of course, these are all scenarios. The rare times I use Reaktor I have no problems (in my scenario) but in all these years the only time I had some issues with the CPU was with Repro.

So, if my production has been fine so far, why should I do a Failure Test with Tools that I do not use, except in rare cases, and sacrifice my established workflow and built-in tools and move to a DAW for that rare usage unless that's more important than what I've been successfully using for my production? Workarounds are your friends unless it's no longer a rare case.

Tranct has been announcing that he's going DAW-less... and suddently he's looking to a Failure Test Proof DAW...
That's why I was trying to understand why he was concerned with 24 operators with 24 LFO...

If the CPU argument is always dangling like a sword over your head, then pick the DAW with the best CPU usage hoping to have a good workflow and tools as well.

If the shining M4L toys are a necessity... well... bite the head of the snake and swallow it. Done.

[machinesworking]

I agree with all of that. I’ve just always used Live along with Logic or DP, so I think about it in terms of what I’m doing, if I’m using a ton of Kontakt, Reaktor, Repro etc. type plugins I jump to DP, if it’s electronic music I’m in Live. It’s not a headache to just choose the tools that work well for the job at hand, because as you said workarounds are fine until they kill your drive.
Live Suite is at the point to where you could treat it like you can treat Logic or Reason, as a self enclosed system. ai actually do enjoy that, the MPC is giving me some great results and almost all of it is the embedded plugins hardly any VSTs. When you work like that there is no weird spiking etc etc. like Engee mentioned. Another way is to eliminate VSTs by using Linux!

[liquidsound]

Another way is to eliminate VSTs by using Linux!

[pdxindy]

Let's say there is no Bitwig! Would I use Live?

If Bitwig didn't exist, I would use Logic.

Logic has useful features that Bitwig doesn't have, that Live also doesn't have. The Bitwig features I most value neither Live nor Logic have. Live is the odd one out for me.

I use Logic to fill in some functions not available in Bitwig (or Live):
Logic has built-in pitch correction
Logic Drummer
Tempo mapping
And the Logic Step Sequencer. Bitwig doesn't even have a dedicated Step Sequencer device (you can make all sorts of sequencing stuff in the Grid). Live has dozens of sequencer devices if one includes M4L but none of them come close to the Step Sequencer in Logic which is freakin amazing! I'd happily pay the full Bitwig upgrade price just to get that Step Sequencer native to Bitwig.

[enCiphered]

Have you tried Stepic? If not you should!

[liquidsound]

Logic... very good one indeed, but I can't stand Logic Believe me, I tried

M4L, dozens of incredible and sophisticated sequencers with additional features non existent in a sequencer built in a DAW...

Stepic, the last update was great and it has a dedicated Ableton version plus a VST so you can use it in Bitwig.

I rather pick accordingly to task and M4L offers more than I can dream of.

[EnGee]

Let's say there is no Bitwig! Would I use Live?

If Bitwig didn't exist, I would use Logic.

Logic has useful features that Bitwig doesn't have, that Live also doesn't have. The Bitwig features I most value neither Live nor Logic have. Live is the odd one out for me.

I use Logic to fill in some functions not available in Bitwig (or Live):
Logic has built-in pitch correction
Logic Drummer
Tempo mapping
And the Logic Step Sequencer. Bitwig doesn't even have a dedicated Step Sequencer device (you can make all sorts of sequencing stuff in the Grid). Live has dozens of sequencer devices if one includes M4L but none of them come close to the Step Sequencer in Logic which is freakin amazing! I'd happily pay the full Bitwig upgrade price just to get that Step Sequencer native to Bitwig.

Yes I agree that Logic is fantastic. It would be one of my choices (although it is installed on my Mac and I do visit it and play around from time to time).

Other DAWs I would consider are Cubase and Reason. Cubase is a big monster, but because I know my way around and being using it for many years, it is like home for me.

Reason is an excellent choice also as it is another sound design workstation with great instruments, both by Reason Studios and by 3rd party.

Have you tried Stepic? If not you should!

I thought after first 3 words that "Reaper" would come! As it is a sentence would come even if I ask myself what shoes I want to buy!

[pdxindy]

Have you tried Stepic? If not you should!

I have Stepic. It doesn't come close to the speed and power of Logic's Step Sequencer.

[pdxindy]

M4L, dozens of incredible and sophisticated sequencers with additional features non existent in a sequencer built in a DAW...

I tried lots of the M4L sequencers. They all have the same basic limitation. They are not integrated like the Logic Step Sequencer. Same with plugins like Stepic.

The Logic Step Sequencer is a clip in the timeline. I can drag the clip where I want the sequencer to play. And drag the edge to set its length. And make an alias(es) to have it play in other places and still be edited in one place. I can have multiple different Step Sequencers on the same track.

With plugins like Stepic and the M4L sequencers, they don't exist as clips on the timeline and are hard to work with cause they are separate worlds. They end up requiring complex chaining and song modes to do what is super fast and intuitive in Logic.

Then the Logic Step Sequencer (Pattern Region) can be converted to a regular Midi Region. It can be converted back to a Pattern Region. It never boxes the user in.

You can record live into the Logic Step Sequencer. It can have unlimited lanes. Lanes can be notes, CC's and parameter automation. Enable midi recording, move 6 knobs on your synth and those 6 parameters are added as lanes.

The GUI is big and fast and clear and a great workflow. And you can also display the Step Sequencer using Logic Remote on an iPad.

Nothing in Live (or Bitwig) even comes close the basic capability.

[Trancit]

Tranct has been announcing that he's going DAW-less... and suddently he's looking to a Failure Test Proof DAW...
That's why I was trying to understand why he was concerned with 24 operators with 24 LFO...

...

I did what???

Where did I say I go Daw-less??

I heavily rely on Daws and that will never change... I just try to finally settle on a real main DAW and the CPU/resources comparisons of things I would do a lot in DAW XYZ are a crucial part for me...

If it´s a real scenario or not if 2 DAWs out of 3 run 240 LFO´s with a tiny smile on their face while the third one is working heavily under this minor task ... this is at least a drawback for me... if not a showstopper...
And even if such kind of tests are not taken out of a real life scenario, for me it isn´t unusual to use 240 LFO´s/random Modulators in a project and if Live is stealing me 1/3rd of CPU and 70% of the available RAM for what the others smile and just go ahead it will definetely restrict me and I would have to workaround that by i.e. avoiding as much as I can the M4L modulators...

Otoh I don´t choose a DAW and pay extra money for the bigger version to avoid what it´s offering because it´s just not working correctly...

Than I would have to say... ok nice stuff in there but the initial euphoria doesn´t seem to be justified as parts which I need simply do not work correctly.

And here we go:

- FL Studio is actually a perfect match for me...
I love the GUI and how snappy/fluid/lightweighted it feels...
The plugins belong to the best I have ever seen in DAW... the best PR in town... financially the most lightweighted too... all fine...

But Patterns and the endless make unique madness killing me ... it´s such a PITA to work with when projects grow... it´s not funny anymore...
The worst part: this will never change... so live with it or leave it...

- Bitwig... fresh, young, innovative with many many workflow enhancements... actually a joy to work with and being creative with it´s modular approach...
In many areas it´s very noticeable that they wanted to avoid the mistakes the others did with big success...

But there are so many little things starting to annoy you like endless mouse travels back and forth because it´s relying on things which change focus with everything you click on...
The new browser and I will never get friends and the PR editor which I heavily rely on belongs to the worst I have ever been forced to work with...
Otoh there´s still hope... it´s a young DAW and noone knows what they will bring on in future...

- Ableton... actually a great DAW with many nice aspects and imho far better stock devices than Bitwig and a great PR editor which now gets even better for my type of working...

But as well as FL Studio it´s a code dinosaur with many mistakes under the hood making easy things cumbersome to do (i.e. bouncing, actions on multiselected clips etc...) and it simply feels heavy and slow... freezing a track on a bigger project wants you to go and get a coffee in meantime...etc...

CPU/RAM/stability/PDC issues do not help either nor does it by it´s far worst HDPI support which doesn´t let me use Serum VST3 (and therefore automation with real values) as soon as I want to use Rapid, Avenger, Scaler, Melda plugins etc...

With these issues there is just little hope that things will change while Image Line is rewriting the whole programm to make it more modern and modular working...

So which would be the better fit for me??
- FL Studio which I know best, get lifetime free upgrades, has the best PR editor but I will have to fight against "Patterns" for the rest of my life...
- Bitwig as the most fresh and innovative one but with having to have hope that they finally improve on Midi and the PR editor some day... (while this is not unlikely to happen)
- Ableton with it´s great devices, nice PR editor and many other aspects which are unique the way they are working and I like but a heavily demanding framework under the hood whose issues like PDC most likely will never change...

[liquidsound]

M4L, dozens of incredible and sophisticated sequencers with additional features non existent in a sequencer built in a DAW...

I tried lots of the M4L sequencers. They all have the same basic limitation. They are not integrated like the Logic Step Sequencer. Same with plugins like Stepic.

The Logic Step Sequencer is a clip in the timeline. I can drag the clip where I want the sequencer to play. And drag the edge to set its length. And make an alias(es) to have it play in other places and still be edited in one place. I can have multiple different Step Sequencers on the same track.

With plugins like Stepic and the M4L sequencers, they don't exist as clips on the timeline and are hard to work with cause they are separate worlds. They end up requiring complex chaining and song modes to do what is super fast and intuitive in Logic.

Then the Logic Step Sequencer (Pattern Region) can be converted to a regular Midi Region. It can be converted back to a Pattern Region. It never boxes the user in.

You can record live into the Logic Step Sequencer. It can have unlimited lanes. Lanes can be notes, CC's and parameter automation. Enable midi recording, move 6 knobs on your synth and those 6 parameters are added as lanes.

The GUI is big and fast and clear and a great workflow. And you can also display the Step Sequencer using Logic Remote on an iPad.

Nothing in Live (or Bitwig) even comes close the basic capability.

Different workflow for sure. The sheer complexity of some M4L sequencers are the actual inspiration that is quite unrivaled by any DAW built-in or VST seq.

Add the fact that there is also another level of integration with the M4L device and the heart of Ableton, you are looking at something really out of the ordinary (similar to the experience of the BW Grid integration but with more far reaching complexity).

There is a price to pay sometime but the reward is outstanding.

It’s not your cup of tea, but to illustrate, the Fors M4L devices are an example of such ecosystem hard to imagine with other DAWs.

For some, it’s enough to use Bitwig or Ableton, but if you want to cover more grounds, both DAWs are not a bad idea.

One DAW to choose… Ableton for the immense ecosystem that, judging from what we are beginning to see with v12, it’s showing that the sleeping giant is waking up and there is a very bright future ahead AND, by looking at the way Ableton and Bitwig are dancing on the same dance floor, we are going to see similar tools morphing from one DAW to the other.

The most important factor in choosing a DAW is if it can support your journey and production style and demands.
If I had to write mostly Ambient I would go 100% Bitwig for the sheer fact of CLAP on Diva or Hive… marvelous results.

I write Ambient when it just happens by accident

Yes, Ableton all the way for me

[liquidsound]

M4L, dozens of incredible and sophisticated sequencers with additional features non existent in a sequencer built in a DAW...

I tried lots of the M4L sequencers. They all have the same basic limitation. They are not integrated like the Logic Step Sequencer. Same with plugins like Stepic.

The Logic Step Sequencer is a clip in the timeline. I can drag the clip where I want the sequencer to play. And drag the edge to set its length. And make an alias(es) to have it play in other places and still be edited in one place. I can have multiple different Step Sequencers on the same track.

With plugins like Stepic and the M4L sequencers, they don't exist as clips on the timeline and are hard to work with cause they are separate worlds. They end up requiring complex chaining and song modes to do what is super fast and intuitive in Logic.

Then the Logic Step Sequencer (Pattern Region) can be converted to a regular Midi Region. It can be converted back to a Pattern Region. It never boxes the user in.

You can record live into the Logic Step Sequencer. It can have unlimited lanes. Lanes can be notes, CC's and parameter automation. Enable midi recording, move 6 knobs on your synth and those 6 parameters are added as lanes.

The GUI is big and fast and clear and a great workflow. And you can also display the Step Sequencer using Logic Remote on an iPad.

Nothing in Live (or Bitwig) even comes close the basic capability.

Logic Seq works as it is and if don’t like it or want a different feature from it you can’t. Take it or leave…
With M4L you have so many choices that you’ll get to experience stuff you didn’t think of in the first place and that’s is a plus in the creative bucket and fun, which is also quite important.

The problem is that both solution are locked to a DAW….

[liquidsound]

Tranct has been announcing that he's going DAW-less... and suddently he's looking to a Failure Test Proof DAW...
That's why I was trying to understand why he was concerned with 24 operators with 24 LFO...

...

I did what???

Where did I say I go Daw-less??

I heavily rely on Daws and that will never change... I just try to finally settle on a real main DAW and the CPU/resources comparisons of things I would do a lot in DAW XYZ are a crucial part for me...

If it´s a real scenario or not if 2 DAWs out of 3 run 240 LFO´s with a tiny smile on their face while the third one is working heavily under this minor task ... this is at least a drawback for me... if not a showstopper...
And even if such kind of tests are not taken out of a real life scenario, for me it isn´t unusual to use 240 LFO´s/random Modulators in a project and if Live is stealing me 1/3rd of CPU and 70% of the available RAM for what the others smile and just go ahead it will definetely restrict me and I would have to workaround that by i.e. avoiding as much as I can the M4L modulators...

Otoh I don´t choose a DAW and pay extra money for the bigger version to avoid what it´s offering because it´s just not working correctly...

Than I would have to say... ok nice stuff in there but the initial euphoria doesn´t seem to be justified as parts which I need simply do not work correctly.

And here we go:

- FL Studio is actually a perfect match for me...
I love the GUI and how snappy/fluid/lightweighted it feels...
The plugins belong to the best I have ever seen in DAW... the best PR in town... financially the most lightweighted too... all fine...

But Patterns and the endless make unique madness killing me ... it´s such a PITA to work with when projects grow... it´s not funny anymore...
The worst part: this will never change... so live with it or leave it...

- Bitwig... fresh, young, innovative with many many workflow enhancements... actually a joy to work with and being creative with it´s modular approach...
In many areas it´s very noticeable that they wanted to avoid the mistakes the others did with big success...

But there are so many little things starting to annoy you like endless mouse travels back and forth because it´s relying on things which change focus with everything you click on...
The new browser and I will never get friends and the PR editor which I heavily rely on belongs to the worst I have ever been forced to work with...
Otoh there´s still hope... it´s a young DAW and noone knows what they will bring on in future...

- Ableton... actually a great DAW with many nice aspects and imho far better stock devices than Bitwig and a great PR editor which now gets even better for my type of working...

But as well as FL Studio it´s a code dinosaur with many mistakes under the hood making easy things cumbersome to do (i.e. bouncing, actions on multiselected clips etc...) and it simply feels heavy and slow... freezing a track on a bigger project wants you to go and get a coffee in meantime...etc...

CPU/RAM/stability/PDC issues do not help either nor does it by it´s far worst HDPI support which doesn´t let me use Serum VST3 (and therefore automation with real values) as soon as I want to use Rapid, Avenger, Scaler, Melda plugins etc...

With these issues there is just little hope that things will change while Image Line is rewriting the whole programm to make it more modern and modular working...

So which would be the better fit for me??
- FL Studio which I know best, get lifetime free upgrades, has the best PR editor but I will have to fight against "Patterns" for the rest of my life...
- Bitwig as the most fresh and innovative one but with having to have hope that they finally improve on Midi and the PR editor some day... (while this is not unlikely to happen)
- Ableton with it´s great devices, nice PR editor and many other aspects which are unique the way they are working and I like but a heavily demanding framework under the hood whose issues like PDC most likely will never change...

Hummm…. Somewhere I remember you mentioned you were going totally hardware and away from the DAW system….
My bad then…

Regarding the rest of your post, if you need 240 LFO… stay away from Ableton, IMHO, because it’s meant for making music in a different manner, mostly with speed/results in mind and M4L used to spice up your music production, except for v12 which has elevated its usage in the pianoroll and there will be more to come…

[xbitz]

Tranct has been announcing that he's going DAW-less... and suddently he's looking to a Failure Test Proof DAW...
That's why I was trying to understand why he was concerned with 24 operators with 24 LFO...

...

I did what???

Where did I say I go Daw-less??

I heavily rely on Daws and that will never change... I just try to finally settle on a real main DAW and the CPU/resources comparisons of things I would do a lot in DAW XYZ are a crucial part for me...

If it´s a real scenario or not if 2 DAWs out of 3 run 240 LFO´s with a tiny smile on their face while the third one is working heavily under this minor task ... this is at least a drawback for me... if not a showstopper...
And even if such kind of tests are not taken out of a real life scenario, for me it isn´t unusual to use 240 LFO´s/random Modulators in a project and if Live is stealing me 1/3rd of CPU and 70% of the available RAM for what the others smile and just go ahead it will definetely restrict me and I would have to workaround that by i.e. avoiding as much as I can the M4L modulators...

Otoh I don´t choose a DAW and pay extra money for the bigger version to avoid what it´s offering because it´s just not working correctly...

Than I would have to say... ok nice stuff in there but the initial euphoria doesn´t seem to be justified as parts which I need simply do not work correctly.

And here we go:

- FL Studio is actually a perfect match for me...
I love the GUI and how snappy/fluid/lightweighted it feels...
The plugins belong to the best I have ever seen in DAW... the best PR in town... financially the most lightweighted too... all fine...

But Patterns and the endless make unique madness killing me ... it´s such a PITA to work with when projects grow... it´s not funny anymore...
The worst part: this will never change... so live with it or leave it...

- Bitwig... fresh, young, innovative with many many workflow enhancements... actually a joy to work with and being creative with it´s modular approach...
In many areas it´s very noticeable that they wanted to avoid the mistakes the others did with big success...

But there are so many little things starting to annoy you like endless mouse travels back and forth because it´s relying on things which change focus with everything you click on...
The new browser and I will never get friends and the PR editor which I heavily rely on belongs to the worst I have ever been forced to work with...
Otoh there´s still hope... it´s a young DAW and noone knows what they will bring on in future...

- Ableton... actually a great DAW with many nice aspects and imho far better stock devices than Bitwig and a great PR editor which now gets even better for my type of working...

But as well as FL Studio it´s a code dinosaur with many mistakes under the hood making easy things cumbersome to do (i.e. bouncing, actions on multiselected clips etc...) and it simply feels heavy and slow... freezing a track on a bigger project wants you to go and get a coffee in meantime...etc...

CPU/RAM/stability/PDC issues do not help either nor does it by it´s far worst HDPI support which doesn´t let me use Serum VST3 (and therefore automation with real values) as soon as I want to use Rapid, Avenger, Scaler, Melda plugins etc...

With these issues there is just little hope that things will change while Image Line is rewriting the whole programm to make it more modern and modular working...

So which would be the better fit for me??
- FL Studio which I know best, get lifetime free upgrades, has the best PR editor but I will have to fight against "Patterns" for the rest of my life...
- Bitwig as the most fresh and innovative one but with having to have hope that they finally improve on Midi and the PR editor some day... (while this is not unlikely to happen)
- Ableton with it´s great devices, nice PR editor and many other aspects which are unique the way they are working and I like but a heavily demanding framework under the hood whose issues like PDC most likely will never change...

luckily most of the basic functions of FLS piano roll has been copied out to https://helio.fm/ or https://docs.helio.fm/tips-and-tricks.html

refactoring operations are especially nice in it