Live 12 or Bitwig 5.1

[pdxindy]

Logic Seq works as it is and if don’t like it or want a different feature from it you can’t. Take it or leave…
With M4L you have so many choices that you’ll get to experience stuff you didn’t think of in the first place and that’s is a plus in the creative bucket and fun, which is also quite important.

You are talking about features in the sequencers.

I prefer the Logic SS due to a more fundamental difference. Whether it is M4L devices or sequencer plugins, they all have their own timeline and are not integrated into the DAW timeline.

Since you mentioned it, take Fors Opal. It is an excellent little drum synth/sequencer. Okay, make a cool pattern with it. Now what happens? Suppose you want that pattern to start on the 3rd beat of bar 2. Then you want it to play 2 1/2 bars and then start from the beginning of the pattern and play 3 times and so on.

Since such devices are their own world and don't function directly on the DAW timeline, developers start adding stuff like saving patterns, snapshots and chaining/song modes cause the only way to control them is by creating a separate timeline. The user can avoid that level of complexity by bouncing patterns to audio and then one is free to cut/paste to build a structure directly on the DAW timeline.

The Logic Step Sequencer starts as an integral part of the DAW timeline and is represented as a clip on the timeline. It is not a separate device. If you want the pattern to start at bar 2, just move the clip there. Want it to loop 2 1/2 times? drag the end of the clip to the needed length. Want it to pause a bar and half and then start from the beginning? Duplicate the clip and place it where you want. That duplicate can be independent or an alias.

Of course you are free to use what you want, but this basic difference is why I would happily trade all the dozens of M4L sequencers for the single one in Logic.

And so far, I haven't even mentioned the features of the devices themselves. In terms of features, the Logic Step Sequencer is easily my favorite in software. And the workflow is great!

If a few 'sequencers as devices' were added to Bitwig, I would still end up more often doing what I do now, which is use regular midi clips for the same reason as above. They are part of the DAW timeline and are fundamentally easier to work with. Bitwig midi clips along with Operators and Note Expressions are quite capable "sequencers" as is.

[liquidsound]

Logic Seq works as it is and if don’t like it or want a different feature from it you can’t. Take it or leave…
With M4L you have so many choices that you’ll get to experience stuff you didn’t think of in the first place and that’s is a plus in the creative bucket and fun, which is also quite important.

You are talking about features in the sequencers.

I prefer the Logic SS due to a more fundamental difference. Whether it is M4L devices or sequencer plugins, they all have their own timeline and are not integrated into the DAW timeline.

Since you mentioned it, take Fors Opal. It is an excellent little drum synth/sequencer. Okay, make a cool pattern with it. Now what happens? Suppose you want that pattern to start on the 3rd beat of bar 2. Then you want it to play 2 1/2 bars and then start from the beginning of the pattern and play 3 times and so on.

Since such devices are their own world and don't function directly on the DAW timeline, developers start adding stuff like saving patterns, snapshots and chaining/song modes cause the only way to control them is by creating a separate timeline. The user can avoid that level of complexity by bouncing patterns to audio and then one is free to cut/paste to build a structure directly on the DAW timeline.

The Logic Step Sequencer starts as an integral part of the DAW timeline and is represented as a clip on the timeline. It is not a separate device. If you want the pattern to start at bar 2, just move the clip there. Want it to loop 2 1/2 times? drag the end of the clip to the needed length. Want it to pause a bar and half and then start from the beginning? Duplicate the clip and place it where you want. That duplicate can be independent or an alias.

Of course you are free to use what you want, but this basic difference is why I would happily trade all the dozens of M4L sequencers for the single one in Logic.

And so far, I haven't even mentioned the features of the devices themselves. In terms of features, the Logic Step Sequencer is easily my favorite in software. And the workflow is great!

If a few 'sequencers as devices' were added to Bitwig, I would still end up more often doing what I do now, which is use regular midi clips for the same reason as above. They are part of the DAW timeline and are fundamentally easier to work with. Bitwig midi clips along with Operators and Note Expressions are quite capable "sequencers" as is.

I was focusing more on the incredible options in Sequencers available in the M4L devices ecosystem which are way more inspirational than the Logic Sequencer (I dislike Logic in many ways...) due to the way they work.

Now, with Ableton 12 and the enhanced piano roll functions (including the possibility to incorporate M4L devices at leisure), I can't see Logic matching the overall end result in creative power compared to Ableton combinations of the "New" integration and the huge amount of devices available (and in the making... ).

Nope; no match, but just preferences which is OK of course.

An old Device (and just imagine stuff like this one being integrated in the Pianoroll...) sending MIDI as well.

[SLiC]

I must admit there is some fascinating MAX stuff showing up now as can be seen in this thread...viewtopic.php?t=571827&start=120

I think L12 has will inspire some deep integration and now we have a 'modulators' icon/menu in the browser, so there is definitely more focus on modulation as well. Live took its initial main concepts from Live (clips, racks etc) and now it looks like Live is borrowing a few things from Bitwig, good for everybody!

[SLiC]

An old Device (and just imagine stuff like this one being integrated in the Pianoroll...) sending MIDI as well.

Like this you mean?

[liquidsound]

An old Device (and just imagine stuff like this one being integrated in the Pianoroll...) sending MIDI as well.

Like this you mean?

[vertibration]

I got bitwig essentials, dont really need the grid as I have so many plugins, but I can honestly say I really prefer Bitwig over live.

[audiouser720]

I got bitwig essentials, dont really need the grid as I have so many plugins, but I can honestly say I really prefer Bitwig over live.

Why do you prefer it over Live?

[pdxindy]

I was focusing more on the incredible options in Sequencers available in the M4L devices ecosystem which are way more inspirational than the Logic Sequencer (I dislike Logic in many ways...) due to the way they work.

Now, with Ableton 12 and the enhanced piano roll functions (including the possibility to incorporate M4L devices at leisure), I can't see Logic matching the overall end result in creative power compared to Ableton combinations of the "New" integration and the huge amount of devices available (and in the making... ).

Nope; no match, but just preferences which is OK of course.

An old Device (and just imagine stuff like this one being integrated in the Pianoroll...) sending MIDI as well.

First of all, you are talking about a commercial add-on. You have to pay money for it. There is a whole world of interesting sequencers available as plugins which one can use in any DAW.

Regarding M4L sequencers (including commercial ones). There are a lot of them and I've tried a bunch. There are some great ideas in them. There are also lots of limitations. Here is how it often went for me. Oh, this looks cool. Oh, nice feature... but now I want to do something and it cannot. Okay, try another M4L sequencer device. Nice, it does it, but it doesn't do this. Try another. After a bunch of time and money spent, my conclusion was I would prefer one device that was more comprehensive and flexible.

Enter Logic's Step Sequencer.

Besides added cost, Euclidean Sequencer Pro (Your example above) has only 4 lanes. Want a 5th? Nope, you gotta go find a different device.

Logic's Step Sequencer can have 4 lanes, or 5, or 10, 20 or more. It's open ended.

One of the big new features of Live 12 (which is an excellent feature for Live users) is that M4L devices can have some integration into the piano roll. That integration is limited, but a good step forward.

Logic's Step Sequencer hasn't just been integrated into the piano roll from day one. It IS the piano roll.

I can record my playing directly into the step sequencer (inducing notes being off the grid).
I can record live parameter tweaking directly into the sequencer.
I can convert the sequencer to a midi clip, tweak something, and convert it back to the sequencer.
I can add whatever number of parameter automation lanes that I want (simply by touching knobs on devices). All those lanes are visible at once.
Each lane can have its own number of steps and playback speed.
Plus the usual, probability, step length, repeats, etc., etc., etc.
Logics Step Sequencer is incredibly powerful, flexible and open ended.

Like you said, it is a matter of preference. Logic's one Step Sequencer would be more useful to me, than all the M4L stuff combined. I sent a feature request to the Bitwig devs explaining why, if they are going to add a dedicated sequencer device, I would prefer the Logic approach.

To me, lots of the M4L stuff is kinda like toys, cool visually, fun to play with, but annoyingly limited when you get down to the actual task of turning ideas into musical results. After a while, I stopped using them (before I stopped using Live altogether).

That's why in Bitwig, I mostly use regular midi clips, along with Operators and Note Expressions and Note FX, rather than sequencer plugins (which I find some use for too). For example, as a melodic sequencer tool, I prefer Riffer to anything I tried in M4L.

I also have a couple note driven euclidean sequencer presets saved in Bitwig using Note FX Layer device and multiple Note Repeats. I can use the Midi CAP plugin to "bounce" to midi at any point in a midi device chain. It's a more flexible system than what Live just added in V12.

[Atlatnesiti]

Live always - Live forever

[SLiC]

Logic (and Studio One) both have great Piano Roll sequences, but both er limited to what the developer provides with maybe an update every year or two. I guess the reason we are discussing Live or Bitwig is they both let the user design their own sequencer tools like this that someone just made for Live 12 (despite it being in beta!), the integration is perfect for me and I have already used this free device a lot.



The integration of these tools 'in' the piano roll editor (not racks) is a major step up for Live 12 and personally I am getting more use of the generators that I do the Bitwig Operators which to me just didn't work in terms of integration in the same way the modulation system did (although I am sure love it!)

The MAX stuff is next level now, as long as people like Dillon Bastan are making devices like below and now the piano roll can be improved by anyone who can use MAX, it will feel like Live is being updated weekly!

[perpetual3]

What is this MIDI CAP plugin you speak of!!?

I was focusing more on the incredible options in Sequencers available in the M4L devices ecosystem which are way more inspirational than the Logic Sequencer (I dislike Logic in many ways...) due to the way they work.

Now, with Ableton 12 and the enhanced piano roll functions (including the possibility to incorporate M4L devices at leisure), I can't see Logic matching the overall end result in creative power compared to Ableton combinations of the "New" integration and the huge amount of devices available (and in the making... ).

Nope; no match, but just preferences which is OK of course.

An old Device (and just imagine stuff like this one being integrated in the Pianoroll...) sending MIDI as well.

First of all, you are talking about a commercial add-on. You have to pay money for it. There is a whole world of interesting sequencers available as plugins which one can use in any DAW.

Regarding M4L sequencers (including commercial ones). There are a lot of them and I've tried a bunch. There are some great ideas in them. There are also lots of limitations. Here is how it often went for me. Oh, this looks cool. Oh, nice feature... but now I want to do something and it cannot. Okay, try another M4L sequencer device. Nice, it does it, but it doesn't do this. Try another. After a bunch of time and money spent, my conclusion was I would prefer one device that was more comprehensive and flexible.

Enter Logic's Step Sequencer.

Besides added cost, Euclidean Sequencer Pro (Your example above) has only 4 lanes. Want a 5th? Nope, you gotta go find a different device.

Logic's Step Sequencer can have 4 lanes, or 5, or 10, 20 or more. It's open ended.

One of the big new features of Live 12 (which is an excellent feature for Live users) is that M4L devices can have some integration into the piano roll. That integration is limited, but a good step forward.

Logic's Step Sequencer hasn't just been integrated into the piano roll from day one. It IS the piano roll.

I can record my playing directly into the step sequencer (inducing notes being off the grid).
I can record live parameter tweaking directly into the sequencer.
I can convert the sequencer to a midi clip, tweak something, and convert it back to the sequencer.
I can add whatever number of parameter automation lanes that I want (simply by touching knobs on devices). All those lanes are visible at once.
Each lane can have its own number of steps and playback speed.
Plus the usual, probability, step length, repeats, etc., etc., etc.
Logics Step Sequencer is incredibly powerful, flexible and open ended.

Like you said, it is a matter of preference. Logic's one Step Sequencer would be more useful to me, than all the M4L stuff combined. I sent a feature request to the Bitwig devs explaining why, if they are going to add a dedicated sequencer device, I would prefer the Logic approach.

To me, lots of the M4L stuff is kinda like toys, cool visually, fun to play with, but annoyingly limited when you get down to the actual task of turning ideas into musical results. After a while, I stopped using them (before I stopped using Live altogether).

That's why in Bitwig, I mostly use regular midi clips, along with Operators and Note Expressions and Note FX, rather than sequencer plugins (which I find some use for too). For example, as a melodic sequencer tool, I prefer Riffer to anything I tried in M4L.

I also have a couple note driven euclidean sequencer presets saved in Bitwig using Note FX Layer device and multiple Note Repeats. I can use the Midi CAP plugin to "bounce" to midi at any point in a midi device chain. It's a more flexible system than what Live just added in V12.

[pdxindy]

Logic (and Studio One) both have great Piano Roll sequences, but both er limited to what the developer provides with maybe an update every year or two.

I'm not using Logic much these days, but if I were, I would not need the Step Sequencer to be updated. It already does what I want.

The MAX stuff is next level now, as long as people like Dillon Bastan are making devices like below and now the piano roll can be improved by anyone who can use MAX, it will feel like Live is being updated weekly!

That is a commercial plugin. I can go buy lots of plugins that can be used in any DAW.

We have very different interests. I'm not looking for new stuff every week to play around with.

I think the new Generators in Live 12 is an interesting start. In the future, I assume that they will be non-destructive... so one can layer multiple generators and see the result in the piano roll. At the moment, it is kinda limited. An exciting start, but limited.

In Bitwig, I can chain and layer as many Note FX as I want. The lack there is no realtime representation in the piano roll and a quick bounce to midi option. Since I started using MIDI Cap, I am missing the bounce to midi part less.

[pdxindy]

What is this MIDI CAP plugin you speak of!!?

It records midi. So it works for retrospective recording (up to 60 minutes for the paid version which is $14). I can also put it at any point in a Note FX chain and record the output and then drag the midi into a clip (and disable the Note FX prior to MIDI Cap)

https://www.birdsthings.com/midi-cap

[xbitz]

Sidenote, LibreArp(pattern-based arpeggio generator plugin) is very usable in Bitwig, Ableton doesn't even recognize it. According to GitHub, it was last updated about 2 years ago, it might still be 32-bit, but that's another plus for Bitwig that it can also use those.



free one https://librearp.gitlab.io/

Say, that DAW in the video also looks very familiar.

[SLiC]

That is a commercial plugin. I can go buy lots of plugins that can be used in any DAW.

We are talking 'rack devices' though right- obviously plugins can be better than Bitwig and Lives (or any DAWS) built in devices. But rack devices (and devices that can be opened and tinkered with like Grid and MAX) have their own advantages.

Lives big advantage over Bitwig is that there are high quality commercial rack devices (as Bitwig tried to do with the Spectral Suite) so there is more choice for those who want it. I don't want theses devices forced on me though updates...I would rather buy the ones I want (case in point, I don't want the Bitwig 5.1 Filters)

There are about 6000+ free M4L devices on max4live.com, commercial MAX devices tend to be around $10-30 bucks, so a lot cheaper than most VSTs and many have the advantage that you can 'open them' and see how they work (and even modify them). I don't use so many my self (suite comes withy so much never really had to) but I do like having the option!