Live 12 or Bitwig 5.1

[Stan Navi]

I also got caught in a hype of Ableton 12.
I got crashes with Ableton several times, but for me personally crash champion is Studio One actually.
Ableton was my first DAW and I have warm feelings about it, but nowadays I usually turn on Bitwig, I feel more comfortable and fast with it. And as arranger I don't get, why Ableton shorten stems. If I export stems from Studio One/Pro Tools with the same length for further arrangement... in Bitwig there no issue, I get the same length stems. But in Ableton it become a complete mess, different stem lengths. I feel Ableton is creative on a more sampling side. Bitwig is more for vsti manipulation.

So for me personally Ableton is great for creative start, but for the actual work, arrangement Bitiwg is more rock solid.

[Trancit]

See that last part is just not my experience, I'm not a fan of Live's closed backup system, but at least 90% of the hard crashes I've had with Live asked me if I wanted to recover my work when Live started up again, and saved preset states.

Seems I am on the very unlucky side of things in regards of Ableton...
Perhaps I should take it as a sign that it´s not the right choice for me...

...only FL IMO is as ubiquitous...

First time in my life I have seen this word... you never stop learning

Yep, I appreciate DAWs that do 5 minute backups, makes the whole thing a lot less painful.

One thing I love in FLS... having a variety of options for auto backup... i.e. my choice "Every 5 Minutes & before risky operations" but being able to limit the amount of backups (having set this to 30)
I like as well that it does always do these backups no matter if you have already saved the project to somewhere or not...
I don´t know if the others doing this too...

[liquidsound]

See that last part is just not my experience, I'm not a fan of Live's closed backup system, but at least 90% of the hard crashes I've had with Live asked me if I wanted to recover my work when Live started up again, and saved preset states.

Seems I am on the very unlucky side of things in regards of Ableton...
Perhaps I should take it as a sign that it´s not the right choice for me...

...only FL IMO is as ubiquitous...

First time in my life I have seen this word... you never stop learning

Yep, I appreciate DAWs that do 5 minute backups, makes the whole thing a lot less painful.

One thing I love in FLS... having a variety of options for auto backup... i.e. my choice "Every 5 Minutes & before risky operations" but being able to limit the amount of backups (having set this to 30)
I like as well that it does always do these backups no matter if you have already saved the project to somewhere or not...
I don´t know if the others doing this too...

Ableton does it with a M4L device in the desired intervals.

It's not a sign to give up but a challenge to overcome obstacle by learning (seriously) a tool that has been, is and will be used by hundreds of thousands of musicians.
I'm not the only one having a perfect time, or rare problems, with Ableton, but the way you are giving up and running to the nearest refuge tells a lot about your mindset.

If Ableton was such a nightmare it would not be such a well used DAW by so many pro users.

Just learn what's going on because YOU may be the culprit...

IIRC I mention few days ago that you were going to find a reason to go back to Bitwig... watch your thoughts... they will drive your reality.

For what I know, and experienced in those rare cases, what "machinesworking" is reporting is accurate: Ableton does recover your work. Not in your case... I wonder...

[machinesworking]

For what I know, and experienced in those rare cases, what "machinesworking" is reporting is accurate: Ableton does recover your work. Not in your case... I wonder...

Don't drag me into that kind of snark. Trancit mentioned using quite a few DAWs, if one is the only one that is crashing, which he said was the case, then it's his right not to put up with having to do intense troubleshooting on one he got curious about. IMO anyway, I'm not going to knock him for that. I would knock him if he then continued to dis Live because he didn't want to bother troubleshooting it on his system. That's when I get upset at people who post issues.

Side note, I notice you Windows folk like blaming the end user if things are going south, how on earth do any of you find any bugs if the "issue is between the seat and the computer screen"?

[SLiC]

Live has its own forum https://forum.ableton.com/viewforum.php ... 13529517a9 and Bitwig has a forum here. If you search you will find isolated.cases of users having crashes with either…but nothing common, both are considered pretty stable as can be seen by the lack of general crash reports. Bitwig sandboxing definitely helps with stopping crashes from plugins….this may be advantageous for some users.

[liquidsound]

For what I know, and experienced in those rare cases, what "machinesworking" is reporting is accurate: Ableton does recover your work. Not in your case... I wonder...

Don't drag me into that kind of snark. Trancit mentioned using quite a few DAWs, if one is the only one that is crashing, which he said was the case, then it's his right not to put up with having to do intense troubleshooting on one he got curious about. IMO anyway, I'm not going to knock him for that. I would knock him if he then continued to dis Live because he didn't want to bother troubleshooting it on his system. That's when I get upset at people who post issues.

Side note, I notice you Windows folk like blaming the end user if things are going south, how on earth do any of you find any bugs if the "issue is between the seat and the computer screen"?

Snark? No need for that. I wanted to remind him that what you mentioned is the most common outcome. KVR is not so friendly with Ableton so those reports are not so common (being a common thing it's taken as a matter of fact by users anyway).

Being just curious after purchasing an expensive DAW sounds like it was the first time he used it or barely few times...and so, I would dig into it (after spend time and money sound reasonable especially his enthusiasm for the new feature) and see why it's happening. Again, money were spent and the new feature sounded great to him.

Giving up for a crash? Please...
Anyway, to each his own

On Windows users... I also have an iMac which it crashed once... should I give up?

[Trancit]

Ableton does it with a M4L device in the desired intervals.

Tbh... I don´t want to rely on an M4L devce for this...
If a DAW is as easy to crash as Ableton... and no, I am not the only one... imho it should have better options (user defineable) natively...

It's not a sign to give up but a challenge to overcome obstacle by learning (seriously) a tool that has been, is and will be used by hundreds of thousands of musicians.

Personal preference...

I'm not the only one having a perfect time, or rare problems, with Ableton, but the way you are giving up and running to the nearest refuge tells a lot about your mindset.

You are judging very fast about others just from a few sentences you read here...
For me, I have no clue what caused this heavy crash which even broke the recovery...
I just know that the plugins I used are my absolute go-to´s so if it would be related to them I couldn´t use Ableton reliably anyway... and it´s not only that...

If Ableton was such a nightmare it would not be such a well used DAW by so many pro users.

Perhaps they do not use the same plugins I do... or perhaps these plugins are more stable on a Mac in Ableton...
Perhaps they just refused about the crashes because of liking other things in there so much that they just live in hope the recovery will save them... who knows...

I, for my part just know the following...
The web is full of complaints Ableton not being very stable in comparisson to others...
Every single time I personally tried Ableton it crashed for different reasons...
I bought it anyway because of being thrilled about the upcoming features which really are my cup of tea ...so because recovery has saved me as well in the past I threw the warnings to the wind...

Now I learned the hard way that the recovery might fail completely as well... this is not my cup of tea anymore and even if others can live well with this risk, for me personally this is the absolute super gau and I will not take the risk...

Just learn what's going on because YOU may be the culprit...

Even then... perhaps it´s my way of working, arranging... it could be anything...

What´s better with my experience now... blindly continuing in the pure hope that things or I might change which can easily turn out as being not the case or pulling the plug before eventually wasting more time, more effort more anything and making it even harder for myself to pull the plug later if all doesn´t turn out well enough...

What shall me make confident about this product with the experience that every single time I touched it it crashed while touching others don´t... but it possibly might change in future or I possibly might save my work with some additional workarounds??
I may be the culprit in Ableton but magically that´s nowhere else the case... so why bothering??

IIRC I mention few days ago that you were going to find a reason to go back to Bitwig... watch your thoughts... they will drive your reality.

Oh, comon... these are completely different circumstances now I could not forsee in this extremes at this point...
I like the features of Live better on the paper... but that doesn´t help if I risk to lose my work!

But if you feel better then: Wow, what a bright mind you are! And a clairvoyant too!

Ableton does recover your work. Not in your case... I wonder...

See... and you are stating it wouldn´t be a sign!

[liquidsound]

Ableton does it with a M4L device in the desired intervals.

Tbh... I don´t want to rely on an M4L devce for this...
If a DAW is as easy to crash as Ableton... and no, I am not the only one... imho it should have better options (user defineable) natively...

It's not a sign to give up but a challenge to overcome obstacle by learning (seriously) a tool that has been, is and will be used by hundreds of thousands of musicians.

Personal preference...

I'm not the only one having a perfect time, or rare problems, with Ableton, but the way you are giving up and running to the nearest refuge tells a lot about your mindset.

You are judging very fast about others just from a few sentences you read here...
For me, I have no clue what caused this heavy crash which even broke the recovery...
I just know that the plugins I used are my absolute go-to´s so if it would be related to them I couldn´t use Ableton reliably anyway... and it´s not only that...

If Ableton was such a nightmare it would not be such a well used DAW by so many pro users.

Perhaps they do not use the same plugins I do... or perhaps these plugins are more stable on a Mac in Ableton...
Perhaps they just refused about the crashes because of liking other things in there so much that they just live in hope the recovery will save them... who knows...

I, for my part just know the following...
The web is full of complaints Ableton not being very stable in comparisson to others...
Every single time I personally tried Ableton it crashed for different reasons...
I bought it anyway because of being thrilled about the upcoming features which really are my cup of tea ...so because recovery has saved me as well in the past I threw the warnings to the wind...

Now I learned the hard way that the recovery might fail completely as well... this is not my cup of tea anymore and even if others can live well with this risk, for me personally this is the absolute super gau and I will not take the risk...

Just learn what's going on because YOU may be the culprit...

Even then... perhaps it´s my way of working, arranging... it could be anything...

What´s better with my experience now... blindly continuing in the pure hope that things or I might change which can easily turn out as being not the case or pulling the plug before eventually wasting more time, more effort more anything and making it even harder for myself to pull the plug later if all doesn´t turn out well enough...

What shall me make confident about this product with the experienced that every single time I touched it it crashed while touching others don´t... but it possibly might change in future or I possibly might save my work with some additional workarounds??
I may be the culprit in Ableton but magically that´s nowhere else the case... so why bothering??

IIRC I mention few days ago that you were going to find a reason to go back to Bitwig... watch your thoughts... they will drive your reality.

Oh, comon... these are completely different circumstances now I could not forsee in this extremes at this point...
I like the features of Live better on the paper... but that doesn´t help if I risk to lose my work!

But if you feel better then: Wow, what a bright mind you are! And a clairvoyant too!

Ableton does recover your work. Not in your case... I wonder...

See... and you are stating it wouldn´t be a sign!

Conclusion:

One Crash!

Let me add to this: Bitwig is the most crash proof DAW as I'm aware of. If you like the workflow and tools, don't look back.

[Trancit]

...
If you search you will find isolated.cases of users having crashes with either…but nothing common, both are considered pretty stable as can be seen by the lack of general crash reports. Bitwig sandboxing definitely helps with stopping crashes from plugins….this may be advantageous for some users.

This is not what I have seen...
I didn´t see any videos about users complaining Bitwig would crash constantly... but I see a ton for Ableton...
In the Bitwig forum I see to 99% just praise that it doesn´t crash ever ... never saw this praise about Ableton... and the Bitwig cases are often about beta versions...

I personally used Bitwig about 500% more than Ableton...
Bitwig didn´t crash a single time... Ableton nearly everytime...

Of course I see as well many people stating Ableton would be very stable for them... I have no clue what makes the difference...

[Trancit]

Conclusion:

One Crash!

Wrong: Always crashes... just one time I lost all! That´s a bit of a difference!

But we should finish this now... these leads to nothing anyway!

Let me add to this: Bitwig is the most crash proof DAW as I'm aware of. If you like the workflow and tools, don't look back

Not as much as Ableton in many cases ... but here stability is the key feature which makes all of the difference.
I will give Bitwig another try... but perhaps it will be "Back to FLS" or perhaps Reaper... who knows...

[liquidsound]

Conclusion:

One Crash!

Wrong: Always crashes... just one time I lost all! That´s a bit of a difference!

But we should finish this now... these leads to nothing anyway!

Too quick!!!
you missed the dedication at the end of season 1 of my post

[Trancit]

...
Too quick!!!
you missed the dedication at the end of season 1 of my post

Just added!

[fedexnman]

Buy them both used maybe Live11 and Bitwig4 . Use them both for awhile a couple of months or so then resell the one you don't want to use .

[xbitz]

...
If you search you will find isolated.cases of users having crashes with either…but nothing common, both are considered pretty stable as can be seen by the lack of general crash reports. Bitwig sandboxing definitely helps with stopping crashes from plugins….this may be advantageous for some users.

This is not what I have seen...
I didn´t see any videos about users complaining Bitwig would crash constantly... but I see a ton for Ableton...
In the Bitwig forum I see to 99% just praise that it doesn´t crash ever ... never saw this praise about Ableton... and the Bitwig cases are often about beta versions...

I personally used Bitwig about 500% more than Ableton...
Bitwig didn´t crash a single time... Ableton nearly everytime...

Of course I see as well many people stating Ableton would be very stable for them... I have no clue what makes the difference...

I'm just letting you know that Bitwig beta versions can crash. It's only worth playing with them and diligently reporting the crashes, but that's kind of normal

[xbitz]

btw. another advantage is that the Splice version of Bitwig at 25 months times 16 dollars (400 dollars over 2 years) is roughly the same as paying for Bitwig plus one year of updates (300+100 dollars, during discount periods) but you don't have to pay it all at once, and you'll have the non-producer version (I think)

It's only approximate because you can extend it by half a year(or 1-2x half a year) with a lucky beta period. My license expired two days after the start of the 5.1 beta period, and yet I still got version 5.1