Live 12 or Bitwig 5.1

[liquidsound]

Ableton is still the monster to beat.

In terms of number of users and market share that statement is true.

Yes. And I don’t think it has to do, at this point in time, with BW being the new kid in town anymore.
I mean… every forum and in a lot of Ableton YouTube videos, you see BW being mentioned, by its users in the comments section, with encouragement to switch over. It’s actually a good option for many Ableton (and other DAWs) users that needs another type of workflow.

What “monster” means, beside the market share, is Ableton’s ability to engage again in the game by trying to restructure its old framework. I was surprised to see so much innovation in the pianoroll and global scale awareness for what many people call “an old stiff locked code”.
To me v12 is a glimpse into the awakening giant that has been taken for granted regarding its dead end road because of the original limitations of the code structure.

Such as (and BW abandoned the PR so far)

(Posted by Yorrrrrr in another thread)

Who knows what’s really happening behind the scenes…

I think we should be ready to be surprised, but not yet…

[liquidsound]

There is no fight, there is nothing to beat. Life is not about competition, its about being alive.
Even the oldest versions of Bitwig did inspire me without the need of being on par with Live in terms of features. In the meantime I also own a license of Live. Mainly to be able to share some of my Max/MSP ideas…

Lucky you that has managed to learn M4L.
I wish I had the time (I’m considering) but I have also a midsize business to run and a life to enjoy before the next one

Btw in the above video there is plenty of room for your skills to have fun.

[PieBerger]

Bitwig needs to grow up. He’s a promising kid, but still no daddy Ableton.

Bitwig is growing at an enormous rate compared to Live though and will more than likely surpass it in a few years/versions, unless Ableton can really pull it out of the bag and sort out issues with their legacy framework. I don't think there is a lack of willing at Ableton and there certainly can't be a lack of resources, so there have to be technical reasons why so many basic things still aren't possible in Live and why they can't implement full signal path PDC etc. Bitwig had a lot of these "features" or rather "fixes" from day 1 so it's not like they can't be dealt with, it's just apparent it can't be done within the existing codebase and for that reason, Live will eventually start to fall behind imo.

[Stan Navi]

Why can't Ableton implement track visibility?
Most of the daws have this feature, even Bitwig.

Track visibility ? You mean hiding tracks ?

You can hide deactivated tracks in Bitwig but as far as I know there is no show/hide options as in Logic, Cubase, Studio One...

...and there is an easy workaround in Live to "hide deactivate track"...

Track visibility would be very useful in Live but not just a "hide deactivated track"...

Not only that. For example I want to concentrate on drums editing, so I can hide all other tracks and see only drums. In Bitwig I can folder drums and the select only that folder to be visible. In other linear daws there is also option per track visibility. So to concentrate on certain part of the song it is important feature for me.

[liquidsound]

Bitwig needs to grow up. He’s a promising kid, but still no daddy Ableton.

Bitwig is growing at an enormous rate compared to Live though and will more than likely surpass it in a few years/versions, unless Ableton can really pull it out of the bag and sort out issues with their legacy framework. I don't think there is a lack of willing at Ableton and there certainly can't be a lack of resources, so there have to be technical reasons why so many basic things still aren't possible in Live and why they can't implement full signal path PDC etc. Bitwig had a lot of these "features" or rather "fixes" from day 1 so it's not like they can't be dealt with, it's just apparent it can't be done within the existing codebase and for that reason, Live will eventually start to fall behind imo.

If the Legacy framework is capable of delivering an extraordinary pianoroll upgrade, I think “you” are the one just thinking with an old framework mindset.

Ableton is on the move and with the available financial and ingenuity resources it will extremely hard to fall behind especially in the market share and next wave of innovation.

[FarleyCZ]

I believe the main reason of slow development at Ableton might have been the Push 3. Like ... it doesn't show up in the videos that well, but that thing is an engineering marvel. Don't trust the negativity, I do have the machine and the integration, the optimalization, it's awesome. A rack with 30 effects, several instruments and no hiccups with 64 samples buffer? Come on. You can prepare a whole show in the big Ableton and run it 1:1 in standalone? Sketch an idea in standalone and seamlessly continue on a PC. Love it. There was some serious development happening on that product. But now that thing is done, I hope once they iron a bug or two here or there, they might proceed to more serious under the hood updates of Live itself.

Honestly I still find Ableton to be a bit easier on the eyes than Bitwig, but I gotta give Bitwig props for very fast development and very fast adaption of features. I keep an old Bitwig 1 license around just to upgrade in some nice sale when i feel like there's time for change.

[liquidsound]

Why can't Ableton implement track visibility?
Most of the daws have this feature, even Bitwig.

Track visibility ? You mean hiding tracks ?

You can hide deactivated tracks in Bitwig but as far as I know there is no show/hide options as in Logic, Cubase, Studio One...

...and there is an easy workaround in Live to "hide deactivate track"...

Track visibility would be very useful in Live but not just a "hide deactivated track"...

Not only that. For example I want to concentrate on drums editing, so I can hide all other tracks and see only drums. In Bitwig I can folder drums and the select only that folder to be visible. In other linear daws there is also option per track visibility. So to concentrate on certain part of the song it is important feature for me.

Groups are Folders in Ableton.
You can’t hide them but collapsing a Group is not as hiding but still almost out of the way…

[PieBerger]

Bitwig needs to grow up. He’s a promising kid, but still no daddy Ableton.

Bitwig is growing at an enormous rate compared to Live though and will more than likely surpass it in a few years/versions, unless Ableton can really pull it out of the bag and sort out issues with their legacy framework. I don't think there is a lack of willing at Ableton and there certainly can't be a lack of resources, so there have to be technical reasons why so many basic things still aren't possible in Live and why they can't implement full signal path PDC etc. Bitwig had a lot of these "features" or rather "fixes" from day 1 so it's not like they can't be dealt with, it's just apparent it can't be done within the existing codebase and for that reason, Live will eventually start to fall behind imo.

If the Legacy framework is capable of delivering an extraordinary pianoroll upgrade, I think “you” are the one just thinking with an old framework mindset.

Ableton is on the move and with the available financial and ingenuity resources it will extremely hard to fall behind especially in the market share and next wave of innovation.

In 2023 you still can't select more than one object, let alone edit those objects together. Every single piece of software in 2023 can do this, from Excel and Word, to your OS, other DAWs and any other piece of editing software. There is absolutely zero reason for this not to work in Live, other than it can't be done due to limitations of the now 20 year code base.

The same goes for Bounce in Place, Clips as containers etc. BIP was the most highly requested feature in the Live 11 Beta, with 20% more of the votes compared to the no.2 request. It is a feature available in literally every other DAW, so if users have been screaming for it for at least 6 years (it was in the top 5 during the L10 cycle too) and everyone else in the industry has figured it out, most of them decades ago, what is preventing Ableton from implementing it? All of the steps are there in the software to do it, but there is clearly something about how the audio engine operates at a fundamental level, that means they can't chain the sub-functions together to make it work.

[SLiC]

Bitwig is growing at an enormous rate compared to Live

Really? how many users does Bitwig add each year? How many keep buying update plans? I have been with Bitwig since late V1, always updated. This is the first time I haven't (may just be me but I didn't need anymore filters!). I don't believe there is any real information on how they are doing- they tried to 'sell' add on devices last year that should have been included in the update plan (then backed down and called it an update and we had to wait quite a while to get another update that had any real features) but there were a lot of post at that time about how well they were actually doing, it was turmoil for a few weeks...these guys are still finding there way in a very competitive market. Even if Bitwig is better than Live, that is no guarantee it will succeed and continue...its as much about financial management, marketing power and sales channels (not word of mouth on KVR as people may think!).

Ableton on the other-hand at most does $100 million in revenue per year and a staff count of around 350 (I think Bitwig is about 20 people to put it in perspective). It also owns Cycling 74 (MAX, RNBO etc) and makes hardware (PUSH) - its much harder to grow quickly when you have a massive market share already!

[Trancit]

nevermind

[PieBerger]

I believe the main reason of slow development at Ableton might have been the Push 3. Like ... it doesn't show up in the videos that well, but that thing is an engineering marvel. Don't trust the negativity, I do have the machine and the integration, the optimalization, it's awesome. A rack with 30 effects, several instruments and no hiccups with 64 samples buffer? Come on. You can prepare a whole show in the big Ableton and run it 1:1 in standalone? Sketch an idea in standalone and seamlessly continue on a PC. Love it. There was some serious development happening on that product. But now that thing is done, I hope once they iron a bug or two here or there, they might proceed to more serious under the hood updates of Live itself.

Honestly I still find Ableton to be a bit easier on the eyes than Bitwig, but I gotta give Bitwig props for very fast development and very fast adaption of features. I keep an old Bitwig 1 license around just to upgrade in some nice sale when i feel like there's time for change.

I'm inclined to agree, but if one has little to no interest in Push, it kinda sucks that resources are sucked up whole sale into its continued development. It creates a kind of two-tiered userbase, where those without a Push are second-class citizens in a fashion. I have a Push 2 myself and it's a great bit of kit; works well in Live obviously but also the Moss script in Bitwig holds its own too but if Ableton continue to divert considerable resources towards their hardware/integration, at the expense of other functions/features, it makes it a considerable less attractive DAW for me to use personally and for others who don't use Push much or at all.

Luckily no one is forcing me to use Live, so I can wait to see if your more optimistic outlook becomes a reality, with some solid QoL updates and then maybe I'll upgrade and start using it more again. I thought I would be able to switch between the two more easily, I even matched the Live keyboard shortcuts as a closely as I could in Bitwig, but it's still too uncomfortable to work in Live especially when it comes to audio

[SLiC]

On the other hand, Ableton having a hardware platform somewhat protects them from the piracy that ultimately can take software companies under...ultimately I think it's 'Live', it was always for playing and composing 'live' and not being a 'traditional' DAW, PUSH fits in with that original vision (it was the original 'Dawstrument') and there are a ton of fantastic other alternatives for more traditional production and recording sessions.

[PieBerger]

Bitwig is growing at an enormous rate compared to Live

Really? how many users does Bitwig add each year? How many keep buying update plans? I have been with Bitwig since late V1, always updated. This is the first time I haven't (may just be me but I didn't need anymore filters!). I don't believe there is any real information on how they are doing- they tried to 'sell' add on devices last year that should have been included in the update plan (then backed down and called it an update and we had to wait quite a while to get another update that had any real features) but there were a lot of post at that time about how well they were actually doing, it was turmoil for a few weeks...these guys are still finding there way in a very competitive market. Even if Bitwig is better than Live, that is no guarantee it will succeed and continue...its as much about financial management, marketing power and sales channels (not word of mouth on KVR as people may think!).

Ableton on the other-hand at most does $100 million in revenue per year and a staff count of around 350 (I think Bitwig is about 20 people to put it in perspective). It also owns Cycling 74 (MAX, RNBO etc) and makes hardware (PUSH) - its much harder to grow quickly when you have a massive market share already!

My bad, I was referring to the rate of development, not increasing market share. I agree with your points on the commercial side of things.

Wrt to 5.1 if you focus on what was marketed i.e. the devices, the update wasn't that exciting (if you have no interest in them), but the less sexy stuff like improvements to the mixer are pretty big and very welcome. The inferior Onset and Audio Quantize implemented got a big overhaul in 5.1 too. Piano Rolls are the hot topic at the moment, so maybe some improvements in this area might have been better received in 5.1, but there are still 6 months on the clock (for those who renewed at 5.0), easily enough time for 5.2 to be announced, hopefully with more of a focus of core DAW/QoL/piano roll features

Also, if you renewed your plan for 5.0, 5.1 was a free update and the two combined represent a sizeable amount of updated features, beyond shiny toys. Addition of long awaited MSEGs, with a universal curve editing framework throughout the program, project level modulators, track and project level remotes, complete browser overhaul (whether you love or hate it ), updates to the clip launching worfklow were all included in 5.0.

[SLiC]

Yeh, I'm on V5 and update plan just expired before 5.1 so I will probably wait until the next beta comes out (5.2) and assuming its not just 'devices' jump back in then. Every 12 month is just seeing a little too often for me, but every 2 years is great value! Onset and Audio Quantize improvements were much needed, I am looking forward to that, but not enough to upgrade just yet...If I am totally honest I probably would have just upgraded anyway normally despite being a bit underwhelmed, but I got the Live 12 beta and that has kept me occupied and helped me wait!

[PieBerger]

Yeh, I'm on V5 and update plan just expired before 5.1 so I will probably wait until the next beta comes out (5.2) and assuming its not just 'devices' jump back in then. Every 12 month is just seeing a little too often for me, but every 2 years is great value! Onset and Audio Quantize improvements were much needed, I am looking forward to that, but not enough to upgrade just yet...If I am totally honest I probably would have just upgraded anyway normally despite being a bit underwhelmed, but I got the Live 12 beta and that has kept me occupied and helped me wait!

I tell myself that every 2 years is probably enough, but I'm a sucker for keeping up to date I did manage to hold on for the 5.1 announcement before activating a plan I had in the bag, so that's something I guess