So... Is ambient the new fashion or,,,

[ahja]

Huh? When did point fingers at anyone, Sickle? KVR or not... I'm talking about the genre as a whole, as I thought it may stir up some interesting talk and entertainment. It it most definetely has, though not with the same intentions in mind.

[whyterabbyt]

ahja quoth

Hi whyterabbyt,

I think I explained my 'point' long ago in this thread.

It didnt read like that. It read like justification for your insulting tone and specious assumptions.

I was curious as to why so many ambient producers are suddenly coming out of the wood work, as it appears to be the next 'cool' thing to be doing.

That's not a point, its two assumptions linked by a complete absence of causality. And again, your context is skewed in a fairly

Sure, I did put a bit of a spin on it...

You certainly did. A spin which made you appear arrogant and elitist at the very least. That impression hasnt actually changed.

As ambient can be automatically generated by a number of different reaktor ensembles... MaxMSP... etc...

The fact that you causally link this possibility with your 'out of the woodwork' assertion only indicates a paucity of logic on your part, not any kind of phenomena which needs explained.

I, personally, don't really feel that is musicianship though...

That is irrelevant. Ask yourself if it fits the criteria of 'composition'. Realise that it does. Realise that 'musicianship' is unimportant, to the context, or to the art.

As I have been a musician for as long as I can remember, it makes me feel a bit stupid in a sense. Hard work, creativity, and a vision is something I always put into my music

And once again, back to assumption. You're stating that this alleged increase in the amount of ambient music is being produced by people who do not work hard, show no creativity, and have no vision?
On what basis? Your prejudice against aleotoric systems, or just your ignorance of their actual working methods, workflow, artistry and attitudes?

and when I hear a lot of recent ambient, not just here, created completely by random... It's hard to swallow.

And what proof do you have that it is created 'completely by random'.
Randomised and aleatoric processes are not the same thing as 'completely by random'.

If you want to call that elitism, then fine. But you must understand by point of view here.

No I mustnt. Your point of view is blinkered, uninformed, prejudiced bullshit.

I guess I'm not one of you all here, and that's all fine and dandy. I'm not gonna lose sleep over the matter.

There is no 'all'. Please desist from your repeated generalisations.

I, by far, don't think I'm part of a cool minority, as you put it.

Yes, but you're quite happy to claim other people are in some kind of 'cool' majority.

KVR is not a signifigant part of my life... so I definitly don't think I'm part of any group of people here.

Is that relevant?

I only stated the 'us' comment to show you that I may be thinking on the same ground as other ambient producers, and not a rock musician here to make fun, or hold against.

Except that you are making fund and holding against. So your reassurances of the 'right' background is pretty pointless, isnt ut,


Why do I write ambient (which was the real intention of this thread)?

Really? It certainly appears to be a statement about how peple should and should not produce a particlar style of music, based on purely abstract (and completely prejudiced) criteria.

Cause my earliest recordings as a young teen was an abstract collage of found sounds, and synths... Exploring sound design and visual atmospheres. This is something that always caught my attention. Of course, over the years I grew up and learned how do things in a more musical fasion.

And of course, those you categorise as 'trying to be cool' are doing or have done nothing of the sort, I guess.

Congratulations. Your premise is flawed, your assumptions are specious, and your logic is fallacious. But hey, you've been doing this for 'seven or eight years' so your opinion must be important, huh?

[opiadream]

=
If you can't take the heat, get outta the kitchen.

I've read this thread thru and it occurs to me you could take some of your own advice

[vurt]

Another example... I picked up this CD a few days ago, which kinda triggered this thread. It was the same drone playing out for 40 minutes... Nothing else. Yet this guy gets respect? A 5 year old could have done it. I think its sad that it's gotten to that point.

.....

So what does that have to do with KvR artists?! Was it a disc produced by a KvR member? Why are you transfering this disataste this artist has given you onto KvR artists? Especially when you admit to not having even listened to some of our stuff?

calm down don,lets see if we cant turn this thread around to something we all gain from.
ahja does have a point and i agree with you sickle it didnt come across too well in his first post but lets take it from here now eh?

anyway thanks for mentionin me wasnt fishing for compliments tho.i am however as guilty as others of occassionally putting out random noodles,the thing for me is i see myself as a student so my noodles are learning excercises.i do also do "tracks" as well which i do put effort and work into,i release both into the public as mp3s yes,but no i would never ex[ect anyone to buy a cd i didnt myself feel i had put effort into,as like you ive bought some cds and thought how does this guy get released?
but like every genre some people will abuse it for money i guess?

[Nax]

An analogy would be the hotbed argument of "color field painting" in the art world. Is it art? Is it a scam? Is Rothko a genius, charlatan, or both? Is it only worthy of the title of "art" if the technical skill required to accomplish a similar piece is outside the reach of the common man?

The answer to that is that Rothko is neither. The genius or charlatan labels come from his audience, have only meaning in the context of an audience and have nothing to do with the person in question or his work.

By applying and/or accepting one of the above labels the audience is not recognizing a Rothko inherent quality but rather expresses a common desire of inclusion to a particular group (of lovers or haters of the work, person, etc).

[ahja]

whyterabbyt, thank you for completely mangeling and twisted every word I said.

[Amberience]

Vurt, finally someone who actually tries to communicate and understand rather than throw words.

Bollocks. I said equivalent to what Vurt said back on page three, and you ignored me. Whats wrong? My post count not big enough for you?

There is no exceptable way, and I am not one to judge that. Though words have been put in my mouth that this is my intention. Guess that's KVR though, huh?

You put those words in your own mouth by generalising in your very first post in this thread. You lumped ambient all together, I came out and offered an opinion that there are many forms of ambient music, and you ignored it.

It was the same drone playing out for 40 minutes... Nothing else. Yet this guy gets respect? A 5 year old could have done it. I think its sad that it's gotten to that point.

Now, this is the real juice of what you're saying, and what I have a problem with. You're talking as if you're the local authority on ambient music, why, because you've spent 8 years doing it? I've spent 5, it doesn't mean shit except as statistics.

Which CD was it? Because I'm a massive drone fan, and drone is very intricate music if you listen to it the way I listen to it.

But, you're ears are trained a certain way, and so are mine, and they're probably very different. I like to play with music, not just listen. I like to imagine overlaying samples, and melodies, and noises, I like to excercise my brain. Drone is perfect for this kind of listening.

Stop talking like you're a self-professed master of ambient music and start listening to artists intentions. Read the sleeve notes of that CD, some of them have writings on what they were trying to achieve.

[Amberience]

whyterabbyt, thank you for completely mangeling and twisted every word I said.

Er.. no. He interpretted. There is a difference. You have to allow room for other people's interpretations of what you say, because we don't live inside your head, so we don't know what you're thinking. We have to rely on what you say, and rely on ourselves to be able to correlate that with some part of our life.

[Sicklecell666]

=
If you can't take the heat, get outta the kitchen.

I've read this thread thru and it occurs to me you could take some of your own advice

Fair enough.

Too much Coffee can be a bitch sometimes..

[ahja]

Sorry if i missed your post Acolmiztli. Been hit by a number of words and insults the past hours. Seems everyone wanted to go off course, so... Sorry bout that.

Generalizing or not... It's common. That's what this discussion is about. THere is always great things, and there are always bad things. That's just how it is. My intentions are not to clump everyone together.

Authority? Naa.. No way. Like I said, I'm not one to judge. It's suprising that people have taken it that way just because I said I have been around for a while. I've heard a lot of ambient... Whoa, great. I'm an elitist now? Gimme a break man.

The CD was an Oophoi release.

[opiadream]

=
If you can't take the heat, get outta the kitchen.

I've read this thread thru and it occurs to me you could take some of your own advice

Fair enough.

Too much Coffee can be a bitch sometimes..

I know the feeling

[whyterabbyt]

Markleford quoth However, I will go out on a limb and voice an unpopular view...

I believe that a large amount of ambient is created with no thought or plan at all. It is merely spewed to a file as a byproduct of directionless tweaking.

You may or may not be right. But I would suggest that you are wrong. I would further suggest that whilst there may be more 'tweaking, that much of it may only directionless in the context of more traditionally created music. The direction of such things are often dictated by the context of the thing at that point in time, and the lack of 'plan' is not the same same as any absence of 'thought'.

In other words, is your belief based on some kind of empirical evidence, or merely an assumption based on the implications of your understanding of process?

The bar for ambient music is perhaps the lowest of all forms of "music". Namely, you do not have to be cognizant of notes, scales, chords, or even rhythm. To that end, it doesn't have to be "music" at all.

True...

That's not to say that sound scuplting can't be an intensely rigorous mental challenge. I'm just saying that all it takes as a minimum investment, as alluded to, is "downloading a Reaktor ensemble and twisting some knobs".

And is that 'minimum investment' the norm? personally, I suspect that someone more inclined towards abstract music is less likely to entertain the idea of producing it for its own sake, or to be 'cool'.
After all, I would suspect that certain 'minimum investments' for dance music are far more common. I dont remember 'eJay Dark Ambient', for example.


It's up to the individual artist to express more integrity and initiative than the minimum. And hopefully the ambient newbies are on the path to being serious about this craft and investing more of themselves into the process than merely consuming the remnants of others.

That's certainly something I agree with, and I find it offensive that someone should dismiss those efforts on the grounds that those people are merely on a bandwagon to be 'cool'. That kind of attitude hardly encourages people, newbies or not.

Now it's one thing to be snobby and say "ambient isn't *real* music: it doesn't follow the *rules*". And it's another thing to be snobby and say, "my ambience has risen *above* your antiquated need for *any* rules!".



In the end it's about investment....
These questions are unanswerable to any degree of "correctness". So mote it be with ambient.

It mote. Erm, mite.

[ahja]

whyterabbyt, thank you for completely mangeling and twisted every word I said.

Er.. no. He interpretted. There is a difference. You have to allow room for other people's interpretations of what you say, because we don't live inside your head, so we don't know what you're thinking. We have to rely on what you say, and rely on ourselves to be able to correlate that with some part of our life.

Agreed, sure. But there is also a difference it interpretting it in the most negative way possible.

[Sicklecell666]

whyterabbyt, thank you for completely mangeling and twisted every word I said.

Er.. no. He interpretted. There is a difference. You have to allow room for other people's interpretations of what you say, because we don't live inside your head, so we don't know what you're thinking. We have to rely on what you say, and rely on ourselves to be able to correlate that with some part of our life.

Agreed, sure. But there is also a difference it interpretting it in the most negative way possible.

And you fail to see the significance of several of us interpreting what you've said in almost the exact same way?

C'mon man..this thread was an instigation & you know it..Why back down now?

[Meffy]

Curse you, whyterabbyt -- you quothed with too much context!

Meffy