KVR Audio

ObsoleteAcc99 · Post by **ObsoleteAcc99** » Sat Dec 25, 2004 3:16 pm

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MDMAchine · Post by **MDMAchine** » Sat Dec 25, 2004 3:51 pm

Hello, well what a nice Xmas argument.

As been said if timestreching is that important.. save your pennies! And buy specialty software!

As the saying goes... you get what you pay for.

Ableton is #1 cheap #2 generalized

So of course it’s not going to even compare to a particular (expensive) piece of software which has been developed just for that purpose.

On another note, why use samples at all?

LOL

Architect · Post by **Architect** » Mon Dec 27, 2004 6:02 am

Out of all this talk if you already know what works for you then use it homie, end of story. You can not name anything within the price range of Ableton Live 4 that has better features at stretching and slicing and dicing audio. Someone mentioned Pro Tools, please for 20 grand you've got to be stupid to pay that kind of money to stretch some god damn loops. For that kind of money I would hope it would be worth even half the benefit that I get out of using Live 4, lol.

Architect · Post by **Architect** » Mon Dec 27, 2004 6:12 am

ttoz wrote:
Architect wrote:TO be honest with you any timestretching of certain loops/samples, etc is going to sound like shit it has nothing to do with Ableton Live. Certain sounds just aren't going to sound good and aren't meant to be stretched out of their original pitch/time. Start learning how to make better music and understand how these tools work and stop complaining, it has nothing to do with Live try it in any program you'll probably get worse results.
BULLSHIT! Try the waves time stretcher. every single vocal or instrument i have stretched, even 50%, sounds perfect. And don't tell me to learn to make better music. Man, get a life! LMAO!

Again if that works for you then you've already answered your own question, but for me I have no problem stretching most samples within Live. I've been using Live for a minute now and I know how to work with it. If there is something I can't do right I still have a few tricks to get it working right. For the most part I don't have a need to stretch shit but Live 4 is very worthy of the task. Hey if it doesn't work for you then sorry to hear that, but you can't put the blame on live, there are too many other factors involved, it's a very very solid program.

headquest · Post by **headquest** » Mon Dec 27, 2004 8:35 pm

Architect wrote: You can not name anything within the price range of Ableton Live 4 that has better features at stretching and slicing and dicing audio.

I love Live 4 too, but I don't agree with this point. Certainly once you have got the hang of the four different time-stretch algorhythms then you have a set of flexible tools for time-stretching and pitch shifting, but there ARE other programs that offer similarly great results.

Within Live's price range you could alternatively consider Cubase SL, Sonar 4 Studio, ReCycle, Acid 5, FL5. Sound Forge and Adobe Audition that I can quickly think of. I have tried most of these but not all.

In my experience, Adobe Audition (£210 in the UK, as opposed to £250+ for Live) gives better results for timestretching, and when it comes to "slicing and dicing" you're well off-beam. Live does not contain wave editing features to speak of, and Ableton are quite upfront in recommending that an audio editor is required as an external application at present for doing full-on audio preparation work.

Where Live scores (and I personally use it now as my main sequencer - I love it!) is that it can do time-stretching "on the fly" without audio drop-outs. This is why it is the only one of the programs listed that really suits live use (hency the name - doh!).

So in other words, Live is not better, but it is quicker.

And returning to ttoz's original enquiry, I think you are interested in a program to use alongside Reason? Live and Audition are both great for this, and given your large loop collection either should be a good option. The question is whether you would prefer to supplemenmt Reason with a full-on audio recording/editing/mastering application (e.g. Audition) or a VST host sequencer (e.g. Live 4)?

As you see from my signature I use the combination and I find that all my bases are covered. It is hard to recommend either Live, Reason or Audition without each other, because they erach serve a very different function in the production process (as does Sibelius).

I'm glad from your other thread(s) that you are discovering the joys of Reason though - this is one excellent program when used as a comprehensive sound source and I can thoroughly recommend it as the best CPU-load efficeient and stable program I have ever used on a PC.

soulkraka · Post by **soulkraka** » Mon Dec 27, 2004 8:58 pm

munchkin wrote:
If optimum timestretching/pitch shifting is needed then some of the high end plugins already mentioned are more appropriate.

maybe so but when I have had problems with artifacts in Live I either :

A. chop the sample up and put it on to Impulse pads. This works well with a 2 chord pad loop, for example.

or

B. Use the timestretch in FL5, which is top-notch IMO, and then render at the correct tempo, or just leave it in FL if its rewired.

olafmol · Post by **olafmol** » Tue Dec 28, 2004 9:32 am

the timestretching in live4 doesn't sound supergood, but i think thats logical when you do it realtime.. of course offline timestretching sounds better because it can take all the CPU it needs.....

it would be a good idea if the abletons would include offline timestretching into live, so you could do your live realtime jamming with the realtime algo's, and then use the offline HQ timestretching when mixing down

Olaf

tommy2000 · Post by **tommy2000** » Thu Dec 30, 2004 8:19 am

Live 4 over Live 3...I say yes.

It's not the Waves Transform set, but who'd expect that anyway. That said, I'm still happy with the warp engine in Live 4. (I bought Waves IR-L, now have a better *reverb* than Live's resident).

I thought I was married to Sonar, but with Live 4, I've got two wives in the studio now.

You might want to check out Live 4 itself, along with the recently released Carrier/Hill "Live 4 Power" book. They spend a lot of time on the warp engine, plenty of good tips.

I'd like to hear an audio A/B between Carrier/Hill and a Waves engineer with Waves Transform doing some timestretching samples. I'd bet they'd be pretty close in quality as ranked by a jury of our peers.

Good luck, Happy Holidays!

Tom

Architect · Post by **Architect** » Sat Jan 01, 2005 5:37 am

"Within Live's price range you could alternatively consider Cubase SL, Sonar 4 Studio, ReCycle, Acid 5, FL5. Sound Forge and Adobe Audition that I can quickly think of. I have tried most of these but not all."

Cubase SL doesn't compare to Live 4 in terms of timestretching, it's not doing everything that Live 4 can do in that respect. Cubase just got on the bangwagon with the looping and timestretching features. Sonar 4 Studio is not in the same price range $700-800, Recycle is okay I guess never used it that much, I use soundforge all the time and it's not doing what Live 4 can do. Adobe Audition's forte isn't timestretching either. You guy's keep naming shit but again within Live 4's price range, feature set, flexibility, you really can't name anything that can compare equally.

ObsoleteAcc99 · Post by **ObsoleteAcc99** » Sat Jan 01, 2005 6:26 am

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ObsoleteAcc99 · Post by **ObsoleteAcc99** » Sat Jan 01, 2005 6:27 am

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Sicklecell666 · Post by **Sicklecell666** » Sat Jan 01, 2005 6:29 am

ttoz wrote:
soulkraka wrote:
B. Use the timestretch in FL5, which is top-notch IMO, and then render at the correct tempo, or just leave it in FL if its rewired.
does fl5 have realtime in tempo loop preview?

ObsoleteAcc99 · Post by **ObsoleteAcc99** » Sat Jan 01, 2005 6:37 am

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munchkin · Post by **munchkin** » Sat Jan 01, 2005 7:25 am

What a kerfuffle! I don't see Live as a perfection maker. I see it as a mix up tool.

I like a bit of rawness because perfection is so boring IMO. I'm grateful for a bit of (imperceptible) warping in Live. It adds to the blend.

Having said that I would be hard pressed to distinguish between the stretching capabilities of Sonar, Live and Acid. They all sound fine to me. Recycle works in quite a different way to Live, Sonar and Acid.

Considering the amazing music that's been created on much lesser equipment. I think it's usually the musician who plays the biggest factor in getting interesting results.

v1o · Post by **v1o** » Sat Jan 01, 2005 8:59 am

I always thought Live ahd the best algorithm. It seems to beat match almost anything you throw at eat. I agree it doesnt always work occasionaly some sounds come out bad.

Has the timestretching quality improved in Live 4?