Live 12 or Bitwig 5.1

[xbitz]

^^^ well then we can agree on this, just watched KVR Readers' Choice Awards 2023...

This year we decided to add a new category called Most Innovative and the clear winner is Bitwig Studio 5. Bitwig Studio has always been known for its innovative approach to music production, and with the release of Bitwig Studio 5, the platform continues to push boundaries and deliver a compelling experience for both beginners and seasoned producers. Version 5 includes 10 new modules — four filters and six waveshapers — with 10 new sonic personalities. And the recently announced version 5.1 will feature a new oscillator with teeth! Finally, along with u-he, Bitwig is pushing the envelope with the innovative CLAP format (See above).

Following up was Transit, a brand new product from BABY Audio that has taken off very quickly. Perhaps it's the broad range of influence exercised by online guru and Transit co-designer, Andrew Huang.

https://www.kvraudio.com/best-audio-and ... -announced

Cubase for serious work, Live for live performances, and Bitwig (+ Transit) for push boundaries

[a9k1tp]

btw. Bitwig's own underrated synths work very well in a call and response systems when contrasted with the excellent-sounding Diva or Hive etc., but that's just something that crossed my mind

Polymer is a beast. Cute in its purest form and can challenge the top paid synths when combined with other Bitwig's effects and modulators.

[Artie Fichelle]

True the Bitwig devices are good, but Live12 with all the max stuff is years ahead in work of devices etc. I do say though, that the grid of Bitwig etc. is great, but we need sounds and instruments and devices, which first have to be built. In Bitwig it seems like I have to build all the stuff first, before I can make music.
I do tweak and change almost every preset of any synth to my taste and needs, but it is a great time saver to have alot of prebuilt stuff at hands.

[xbitz]

^^^ welcome to https://bitwiggers.com/

[Stan Navi]

True the Bitwig devices are good, but Live12 with all the max stuff is years ahead in work of devices etc. I do say though, that the grid of Bitwig etc. is great, but we need sounds and instruments and devices, which first have to be built. In Bitwig it seems like I have to build all the stuff first, before I can make music.
I do tweak and change almost every preset of any synth to my taste and needs, but it is a great time saver to have alot of prebuilt stuff at hands.

I disagree, that Live 12 devices are years ahead. All AAS synth are quite weak. That is why Ableton even moved it in Standard version. Operator is good but nothing special, Phase-4 comparable and for me more fun. Only filters from Cytomic good in Operator and Sampler. I'd say Polymer is years ahead for sound quality and PolyGrid also.
Only Meld in Ableton is interesting synth right now, but need time to explore.

[SLiC]

I think Analog, Wavetable, Operator and Meld all sound great, especially followed by Roar. Granulator III (now with MPE) is also a great instrument. All run in PUSH Standalone as well which is very cool if your into DAWless/Groovebox type production. Sound Similarity Search with Sampler is a great combo.

[Mister Natural]

echoing SLIC - the synths inside LIVE are underrated and solid. He forgot to mention that the new Drift instrument is also bad ass. Additional shout out to Operator, Analog and Sampler with the v.11 filters. Great sound.
Peace

[mholloway]

Operator is good but nothing special, Phase-4 comparable and for me more fun. Only filters from Cytomic good in Operator and Sampler. I'd say Polymer is years ahead for sound quality and PolyGrid also.
Only Meld in Ableton is interesting synth right now, but need time to explore.

Cytomic filters are also in ableton's Wavetable synth, which you seem to have forgot existed -- guess it's Not Interesting...

Frankly if you look at Operator, Wavetable, Drift, Sampler, Granulator and Meld and come away asserting that "only Meld is interesting" and the rest are "years behind" -- the issue is you, not Ableton.

[liquidsound]

Operator is good but nothing special, Phase-4 comparable and for me more fun. Only filters from Cytomic good in Operator and Sampler. I'd say Polymer is years ahead for sound quality and PolyGrid also.
Only Meld in Ableton is interesting synth right now, but need time to explore.

Cytomic filters are also in ableton's Wavetable synth, which you seem to have forgot existed -- guess it's Not Interesting...

Frankly if you look at Operator, Wavetable, Drift, Sampler, Granulator and Meld and come away asserting that "only Meld is interesting" and the rest are "years behind" -- the issue is you, not Ableton.

Totally nailed

[Yorrrrrr]

Ableton instruments and effects are amazing. Bitwig is still behind in this aspect.

[SLiC]

Analog, Collision, Tension and Electric were all update to be MPE in 11.3 as well, great for PUSH 3 users. All of the many Live native instruments and FX are perfectly mapped with lovely graphical feedback offering a real hardware experience on PUSH as well. No other DAW has anything that integrates this well out of the box...obviously as Ableton make it for Live!

[Yorrrrrr]

Yep Ableton Live 12 Suite (incl. Max for Live) + Push 3, is end-game. Sorry, but Bitwig can’t provide an experience even remotely close to that.

[pdxindy]

I disagree, that Live 12 devices are years ahead. All AAS synth are quite weak. That is why Ableton even moved it in Standard version. Operator is good but nothing special, Phase-4 comparable and for me more fun. Only filters from Cytomic good in Operator and Sampler. I'd say Polymer is years ahead for sound quality and PolyGrid also.

I always like Operator. I think it's a solid workhorse synth. I wasn't excited when Ableton added the AAS synths cause I already owned them all as VST's. For me, the AAS synths have not aged well (built-in or VST versions) because the company has not actually done any subsequent development, only repackaging the dsp from years ago.

Wavetable, Drift and Meld are solid synths with good sound quality. However, the workflow is kinda meh with plenty of tabs and drop down menus. Plus having to assign modulation in the matrixes is outdated. And the biggest downer from my perspective are the limited mod sources. All the Live instruments only have ADSR's. For example, no AHDSR in any of them. And of course there's nothing like an MSEG or a Steps Source. The LFO's are pretty simple too. The good news is Meld added a more flexible LFO.

The amount of sources is also limited. And it's not like just Drift is limited, but say Wavetable has lots of sources. No, they are all limited. There isn't one Live instrument that has plenty of sources, a couple MSEG's etc.

The other area that is too limiting is polyphony. Unless it is expanded in V12, 8 voices in Wavetable is ridiculous. 16 should be minimum for all the instruments, 24 would be better.

If I could only use the synths included with Live Suite or with Bitwig, it's no contest... Bitwig instruments all the way. Live has too many limitations to rely only on their instruments. It's not like they have one complex synth where you can go beyond those limitations.

Every Bitwig instrument can have unlimited per voice modulation sources. They also have far more diversity of source types including MSEG's, sequencers, etc. Bitwig also has a much better modulation workflow. Talk about light years difference.

With Bitwig instruments, I can set polyphony up to 64. There is the Voice Stacking. Bitwig supports Release Velocity and I can do all sorts of MPE stuff not remotely possible in any Live instrument.

If I were using Live, of course I would get something like Phase Plant to allow for all the possibilities unavailable in any of the Live instruments. But if it is only what is included with Live Suite vs what is included with Bitwig Studio, Bitwig instruments are far more capable, flexible and open-ended.

Fortunately, none of us have to limit ourselves to only what is included.

[Yorrrrrr]

Yeah. Fortunately I have all that's included in Live Suite (which is already enough for me), plus Reason Rack Plugin, Synapse Audio's DUNE 3.6 (and other plugins) and NI Komplete to fill any gaps. Do I need more?. All of this along awesome Push 3 to play.

Recently I tried Bitwig again (v. 5.1) and besides the not as good instruments and effects (to me), I found a very weak piano roll, no MIDI capture and comping, overall dark and cluttered GUI, worst timestretching and warping, worst automation, no musical scale awareness and highlighting, no groove pool, no AU plugin support on Mac, not as great support for external hardware, and, of course, the lack of Max for Live and tight Ableton Push 3 integration. Don't miss Bitwig big advantage over Live, which is modulation, because I already have all the modulation and sound design possibilities I could possibly want/need inside Live (YMMV). So, there's that.

I will try Bitwig again in version 7 (though maybe we'll have Live 12.5 or 13 by then). Let's see.

[StrangeSatellite]

I’ve been using Ableton for around 15 years and am demoing Bitwig 5.1 now. I think the built in devices are great and better than Live in many cases. The grid is also just loads of fun. I used to code devices in Max for Live so I’m quite familiar with that, but I really prefer the grid for building out of the box things, even though it doesn’t have the coding part. It’s just nicer to work with. I’m a Launchpad user and Bitwig now works with that exactly as it does in Ableton, and without any third party scripts that Bitwig used to require.

Honestly, my main gripe with Bitwig may seem very superficial, but it’s the look of the interface. It just looks dated to me. I love the flat minimalist look of Ableton, and the ability to customize with themes. It looks like they’ve expanded upon this in Live 12. I know I’m OCD, but I need my DAW environment to look clean and awesome when I fire it up. It sets the mood for creating. I do think Bitwig will fix this in a future version, but they’re not there yet.

So I think I’m going to purchase Live 12 and keep my eye on Bitwig. If they fix the interface, it will be a buy for me.