Live 12 or Bitwig 5.1

[Yorrrrrr]

MIDI editor is very weak on Bitwig. On the flip side, Live 12 is a MIDI powerhouse now with new MIDI Tools (generative and transformative), better editing features (splitting, joining, etc.), better MIDI effects, scale awareness and highlighting, and old features like MIDI comping, capture and MPE.

[apoclypse]

Doesn't the pitch shifting in Cubase cause significantly more artifacts than Melodyne? Is that what you're going for?

I don't know about your problems with Cubase, but in my case Cubase is quite accurate.

He's just referencing that when it comes to pitch shifting audio, you're probably not going to beat Melodyne using a native algorithm.

Well - Of course Melodyne does a bit of a better job. I bloody better have to do that for a €700 price point. To be honest - While Melodyne is great, it adds that hefty price (for Melodyne Studio) for something that is completely free in Cubase. Sure - If you very often have to shift complete multi-track songs in key, then it is maybe worth the money. But for those very rare cases I need it, I rather do some extra work than drop €700 (€649 at discount at this moment) for that.
The build-in stuff in Cubase does a great job, especially if you take in consideration it's completely free.

Yes price points matter to us home studio types, but the question wasn't about price points, it was about sound quality. This one isn't like the silly summing bus arguments people get into, you can literally hear the difference. If you ever get personally interested in picking up Melodyne Studio, the upgrades from Essential included in some DAWs and plugin packages often go on sale for $200 or less, that's how I got my copy.

Yep. I paid for $150 Editor. You don't need the full version of Melodyne to get polyphonic chord editing, just the Editor edition. If for some reason you need the full Studio version Melodyne will pester you to death with offers to upgrade for like $139. The Studio version has Multi track editing, which I don't really find necessary with ARA in S1.

[pdxindy]

The FlexPitch in Logic is not as good as Melodyne in sound quality, but it is close, costs nothing extra, and is good enough for my uses, which are only monophonic anyway.

Plus I am not going to use iLok so for me Melodyne is not a software I would consider buying.

[Jac459]

MIDI editor is very weak on Bitwig. On the flip side, Live 12 is a MIDI powerhouse now with new MIDI Tools (generative and transformative), better editing features (splitting, joining, etc.), better MIDI effects, scale awareness and highlighting, and old features like MIDI comping, capture and MPE.

Bitwig has also MPE, a lot of midi effects, tools and players. It hasn't MIDI comping.
So I agree on Ableton being certainly better overall, but it isn't black and white... It would be like saying Ableton is super weak on modulation and Bitwig is a powerhouse... Bitwig is certainly better but Ableton is far from ridiculous on it... I believe differences between both DAW are most of the cases more shades of grey than black or white...

[Yorrrrrr]

Yes, there's no such thing as the perfect DAW, there are strengths and weaknesses in whatever side, but since we are comparing Bitwig 5.1 and Live 12 in this thread, after testing both, the great difference in MIDI capabilities was remarkable to me. The difference in modulation was already there (though Live 12 got it a bit closer with new modulation behavior). However, to me MIDI is more important than extreme modulation options all over the place, and it's not like Live and its devices lack modulation tools. I don't need extreme modulation in my creative process, but of course YMMV, it's totally fine if you do.

[Artie Fichelle]

The modulation system in Bitwig is great from its potential, but I wish that Bitwig would now care about the Midi capabilities and comping. I use a lot of modulation in the instruments I use, for example a Fm synth is always a modulated sound, exept You just play a sine.
I never used Ableton much in the past, but now this is going to change with the upcoming version. Because I think it will speed up the process of making a piece of music from the idea to the mastering.

[pdxindy]

So I agree on Ableton being certainly better overall, but it isn't black and white... It would be like saying Ableton is super weak on modulation and Bitwig is a powerhouse.

Actually, the gap is big because Ableton does not have any polyphonic (per voice) modulation. None whatsoever at the Daw level. Bitwig on the other hand does and it is powerful and flexible.

When I used Live, I hardly ever used Daw level modulation because of that limitation and because of how clumsy the workflow is, especially compared to Bitwig. That wasn't a big problem for me because I got around it by using mainly VST plugins which have much better included modulation. I made only minimal use of Live instruments. Fortunately there are plenty of great plugins to use.

And as for midi, the one feature that Live 12 has that I miss in Bitwig, is Midi Step Record. I would like that in Bitwig. Still, I can make whatever midi clips I want quickly and fluidly in Bitwig. The Note FX are fantastic, non-destructive and can be modulated. Plus the Operators are also useful. Add in a few inexpensive plugins to fill a few gaps, and there's not much I need as far as midi. Midi Step Record would be nice. I would also like Midi Comping, but mostly if Bitwig makes it hybrid comping (combining both audio and midi). That would make it of real interest and unique and allow Bounce in Place to save the midi as a take.

The one other midi feature I would like, is something Live doesn't have either which is Logic's Tempo Mapping.

[machinesworking]

The FlexPitch in Logic is not as good as Melodyne in sound quality, but it is close, costs nothing extra, and is good enough for my uses, which are only monophonic anyway.

Plus I am not going to use iLok so for me Melodyne is not a software I would consider buying.

Pitch is just one of many things Melodyne does. Off the top of my head, dynamics, de-essing, sibilance in general, it's pretty crazy how useful it is once you get into it.

[Jac459]

So I agree on Ableton being certainly better overall, but it isn't black and white... It would be like saying Ableton is super weak on modulation and Bitwig is a powerhouse.

Actually, the gap is big because Ableton does not have any polyphonic (per voice) modulation. None whatsoever at the Daw level. Bitwig on the other hand does and it is powerful and flexible.

When I used Live, I hardly ever used Daw level modulation because of that limitation and because of how clumsy the workflow is, especially compared to Bitwig. That wasn't a big problem for me because I got around it by using mainly VST plugins which have much better included modulation. I made only minimal use of Live instruments. Fortunately there are plenty of great plugins to use.

And as for midi, the one feature that Live 12 has that I miss in Bitwig, is Midi Step Record. I would like that in Bitwig. Still, I can make whatever midi clips I want quickly and fluidly in Bitwig. The Note FX are fantastic, non-destructive and can be modulated. Plus the Operators are also useful. Add in a few inexpensive plugins to fill a few gaps, and there's not much I need as far as midi. Midi Step Record would be nice. I would also like Midi Comping, but mostly if Bitwig makes it hybrid comping (combining both audio and midi). That would make it of real interest and unique and allow Bounce in Place to save the midi as a take.

The one other midi feature I would like, is something Live doesn't have either which is Logic's Tempo Mapping.

I see exactly what you mean but I guess you have a workaround relying on polyphonic 'automation' thanks to mpe no? With compatible plugins?
Sorry my memories of Ableton are far and blur... I was 90% reason studios, 10% Ableton before being 100% bitwig.

[pdxindy]

Pitch is just one of many things Melodyne does. Off the top of my head, dynamics, de-essing, sibilance in general, it's pretty crazy how useful it is once you get into it.

I've got those things well covered already.

[SLiC]

Pitch is just one of many things Melodyne does. Off the top of my head, dynamics, de-essing, sibilance in general, it's pretty crazy how useful it is once you get into it.

I've got those things well covered already.

Pitch, vibrato, volume, sibilants, length, timing and 'formants' of each individual note within polyphonic material - you can of course correct (like take vibrato 'off' a voice), but you can also create weird and wonderful new stuff!

Melodyne isn't just 'key' detection it will also detect and change 'scales' (or lift some weird microtonal scale from one audio source and apply it to another part) which I think is pretty unique, especially with polyphonic audio. I real playground for both learning/analysis and adjusting!

[pdxindy]

Pitch, vibrato, volume, sibilants, length, timing and 'formants' of each individual note within polyphonic material - you can of course correct (like take vibrato 'off' a voice), but you can also create weird and wonderful new stuff!

Melodyne isn't just 'key' detection it will also detect and change 'scales' (or lift some weird microtonal scale from one audio source and apply it to another part) which I think is pretty unique, especially with polyphonic audio. I real playground for both learning/analysis and adjusting!

Not of interest. I hardly use existing audio like loops and polyphonic samples. I do use single samples for drums etc. Most of my compositions are all original material.

But even if I did have interest, there is no chance I'm going to use iLok software.

[SLiC]

Most of my compositions are all original material.

All of mine are- I play guitar/bass/drums and sing, no midi for that so I need Melodyne!

But even if I did have interest, there is no chance I'm going to use iLok software.

You don't need iLok for Melodyne anymore (since V5 I think), you can activate 2 computers (and de-active) from the Melodyne site with just a serial number. iLok is just an 'option' (believe it or not some people still prefer it)

Way too much good stuff IMO to worry about the ilok copy protection method....my (soft) iLok has EW Opus (I wouldn't be without Hollywood Orchestra and Forbidden Planet etc), Stymon (BigSky), Eventide, Softube, Expressive E, UVI (big Falcon fan), Moog, Sonix, and even UA (cheap signature bundle in last sale!). I am sure you couls suggest non-iLok alternatives for most of these, but once you have 1 it doesn't matter any more! I find the Roland Cloud authoriser more of a PITA to be honest!

[machinesworking]

Pitch, vibrato, volume, sibilants, length, timing and 'formants' of each individual note within polyphonic material - you can of course correct (like take vibrato 'off' a voice), but you can also create weird and wonderful new stuff!

Melodyne isn't just 'key' detection it will also detect and change 'scales' (or lift some weird microtonal scale from one audio source and apply it to another part) which I think is pretty unique, especially with polyphonic audio. I real playground for both learning/analysis and adjusting!

Not of interest. I hardly use existing audio like loops and polyphonic samples. I do use single samples for drums etc. Most of my compositions are all original material.

But even if I did have interest, there is no chance I'm going to use iLok software.

Lol, on a way you’re doing the same thing you run into all the time touting polyphonic modulation in Bitwig. In no way are either tech anything to write off, but there you go.

[SLiC]

The guitar always had polyphonic modulation, it's the ultimate MPE instrument but its audio

Also totally forgot top mention melodynes 'sound editor' - here you can re-synthesize already recorded sounds!