Sad state of Native Instruments

[PAK]

Also be aware that non integer scaling on macOS causes higher load. There are some complains about that too. Using a 4k display with a scaled resolution on a Mac can cause more load than using a 5k screen.

Mac OS Sonoma uses straight-forward resolution outputs (rather than the bigger text / smaller text nonsense). It will always output to the native res of the screen, and scales to that. For a 4k screen @ 2560 it will thus render at 2x that and then scale it to the 4k output. This actually looks great, despite the 1.33 ratio (smoother than native non 5k 2560), but this will indeed take a chunk of GPU, which you may well notice if you’re doing intensive graphics stuff on screen.

The bit that always gets left off is that you can easily enable “show all resolutions”, and select “low resolution”, and avoid the 2x scaling performance penalty. Though it'll look terrible (think Windows without Truetype at a non-native res). Still, it does give you the option and, IMO, the 2x scaling generally makes fonts look nicer than Windows etc.

That's why 5k is a better technical choice for a 27" screen. The problem is that there are not a lot models available.

Hmm, whilst what you’re saying isn’t wrong, there are a lot of caveats. It’s really about what works for the individual. EG A “retina display” is also about the viewing distance AND the eyesight of the individual.

Anyone old enough, to require reading glasses, may struggle with 2560 @ 27 inches. You’d likely have an easier time with a larger 4k display scaled to 2560, and viewed from 2 or 3 feet away (meaning you don't need reading glasses) - especially for stuff like DAW use where small labels can be common.

Mac OS also “expects” a PPI of 109 (or 110 depending who you ask) to scale as Apple intends. Thus why you end up with Apple displays with weird resolutions, as it tries to stick to both the PPI and 2x pixel density. But PPI issues are usually overstated and, whilst you should be aware of how scaling can impact GPU performance, (IMO) it’s far more important that you can actually see a screen without struggling.

[liquidsound]

I tried to demo Super 8 and there in none…
How is the overall sound of Super 8 compares to Tal-J8?
I’m not looking for an exact Jupiter 8 emulation but for a more substantial bottom/lower end presence…

It’s on 50% off until the 15th
Thanks

[Choikdoi]

It’s on 50% off until the 15th

It was given away with Loopcloud subscriptions not long ago. So, plenty of licenses still around on here / KnobCloud for even cheaper than NI's sale prices. Some I can see on KnobCloud now for as low as 7 Euros.

[midi_transmission]

Also be aware that non integer scaling on macOS causes higher load. There are some complains about that too. Using a 4k display with a scaled resolution on a Mac can cause more load than using a 5k screen.

Mac OS Sonoma uses straight-forward resolution outputs (rather than the bigger text / smaller text nonsense). It will always output to the native res of the screen, and scales to that. For a 4k screen rendering @ 2560 it will thus render at 2x that and then scale it to the 4k output. This actually looks great, despite the 1.33 ratio (smoother than native non 5k 2560), but this will indeed take a chunk of GPU, which you may well notice if you’re doing intensive graphics stuff on screen.

The bit that always gets left off is that you can easily enable “show all resolutions”, and select “low resolution”, and avoid the 2x scaling performance penalty. Though it'll look terrible (think Windows without Truetype at a non-native res). Still, it does give you the option and, IMO, the 2x scaling generally makes fonts look nicer than Windows etc.

You're right, there are different aspects. The subjective perception and the technical view.

Technically, any non integer scaling of typical OS guis reduces the possible sharpness.

You can't display 1.5px. As soon as you scale the OS with a non-integer values, you will have more of these aliasing problems than when scaling with an integer factor. There are quality differences how you scale, but you can't get a perfect solution. Even a vector ui doesn't always look great, when the mapping of sizes is not ideal it can have similar problems. That's why Apple uses the mentioned 110dpi (or multiple) as a standard. This way you have a reference and can be sure that a 1px line fits well into the pixel grid on the physical screen.

The question is only if you see the difference. As you said, distance plays a role and it depends on your eye sight of course. I know people that are fine with a 4k scaled image.

For me, non integer scaled to 4k @ 27" or 32" looks terrible on macOS. Fine structures have a slightly blurred look. I feel like my vision got worse when I look at it. Old, non hiDPI screen have the typical pixelated look and I see pixels, but it's sharp at the pixel edges. The mentioned Cleartype in Windows does use this mechanism to quantize the shape of fonts to the actual (sub)pixel structure. It therefore looks shaper than simple anti-aliasing for fonts, but the font shape is distorted.

The point isn't whether it's 4k or 5k, it's about the dpi at a certain screen size. I agree 100% with you that 110dpi screens display an image that is too small for some people.

Typically the dpi for screens were between 90dpi-110dpi (Windows renders a bit smaller than macOS). Well usable hiDPI screens should have a resolution that doubles that. That means roughly 180-220dpi. 4k 27" has about 160dpi and is optimal for showing fullHD at 27".

A 27" 4k (3840x2160) with a effective resolution of WQHD may work well for you on the subjective level, but it's bad design by the manufactures because you have to use non integer scaling in most cases. With 5k @ 27" you have the same screen area but with technically perfect sharpness. There is no disadvantage.

A better standard would be 27" @ 4400x2485 (similar "icon size" as at 24" @ 1920x1080, but a larger usable space) for a bit larger rendered picture and the already mentioned 27" @ 5120x2880 (area like WQHD @ 27") for Macs and people that like a "small icon" size at Windows. 32" screens need a higher resolution accordingly.

This all is not rocket science. That's why I think it's a pity that the display manufacturers don't offer a more practical solution than 4k on all screen sizes. We could have a much better screen experience this way.

[liquidsound]

It’s on 50% off until the 15th

It was given away with Loopcloud subscriptions not long ago. So, plenty of licenses still around on here / KnobCloud for even cheaper than NI's sale prices. Some I can see on KnobCloud now for as low as 7 Euros.

7 Euros that really is a “Low end” indeed

[Choikdoi]

7 Euros that really is a “Low end” indeed

Also, I don't know enough to be able to say it's 'capable' of more low end than the J-8, but it's certainly dialled in more and has a thicker sound in terms of the presets and onboard FX that it comes with. Won't be your go-to synth, but well worth a buy at prices like that, unless you're trying to keep your setup to a minimum of course.

[vurt]

unless you're trying to keep your setup to a minimum of course.

this is (not) the way.

[Choikdoi]

this is (not) the way.

I know, Mando.

[liquidsound]

7 Euros that really is a “Low end” indeed

Also, I don't know enough to be able to say it's 'capable' of more low end than the J-8, but it's certainly dialled in more and has a thicker sound in terms of the presets and onboard FX that it comes with. Won't be your go-to synth, but well worth a buy at prices like that, unless you're trying to keep your setup to a minimum of course.

Thanks!
I think I'll keep going with TAL U-No-LX in the meantime (Superb Synth) and demo the TAL J8 in more depth.
I'm drifting away from Diva... > TAL Mod

[audiojunkie]

The reason they're not quick to provide resizable UI with 4K compatibility is because, for the majority of their customer base, it's not important. Most producers are still using 1080p monitors. At least, according to the statistics I've read (more or less 80% for SHD and the rest is 4K).

It's also because 4k is a bad technical decision by the manufacturers. You have to deal with non integer scaling (1.25/1.5) with all current os, which might appear sharper at first glance, but it's actually a bit blurry when you look closely and look less sharp on fine structures than using a lower resolution with 100% scaling. Apple uses 5k on its 27" screen because you can scale everything by a factor of 2. It's the only way to get perfect sharpness.

Your argument only applies to those who don't use a factor of 2. This is not a bad technical decision, this is allowing the user to have more freedom to make the decision his/herself. If a user wants HiDPI, scale everything to 200%. If the user wants more real estate rather than the benefits of HiDPI, that option is available too. Even if a person chooses to not use exactly 200% scaling, there is still the benefit of the increased DPI when choosing to have more real estate on a screen. The manufacturers and Microsoft could have simply hidden that functionality--then everyone would have screens just like Macs. But they chose to give the user the option, which I feel is a much better technical decision.

You got me wrong. It's not a bad technical decision to offer the whole range of scaling in software, but to offer physical screens that have to use non integer scaling to be useful.

The problem is that using a factor of 2 on a 4k screen results in an effective area of fulHD. Which is huge or better a very small real estate on a 27" or 32" screen. On a 24" screen 4k is fine.

Also be aware that non integer scaling on macOS causes higher load. There are some complains about that too. Using a 4k display with a scaled resolution on a Mac can cause more load than using a 5k screen.

That's why 5k is a better technical choice for a 27" screen. The problem is that there are not a lot models available.

Yes, indeed! I misunderstood.

[Choikdoi]

I think I'll keep going with TAL U-No-LX in the meantime (Superb Synth)

It is, I love using it for Synthwave / retro stuff.

If you're after a Juno with more low end than that one, I recommend demoing Softube Model 84.

[liquidsound]

I think I'll keep going with TAL U-No-LX in the meantime (Superb Synth)

It is, I love using it for Synthwave / retro stuff.

If you're after a Juno with more low end than that one, I recommend demoing Softube Model 84.

iLok... no luck

[Choikdoi]

iLok... no luck

this is (not) the way.

[concealed identity]

It’s on 50% off until the 15th

It was given away with Loopcloud subscriptions not long ago. So, plenty of licenses still around on here / KnobCloud for even cheaper than NI's sale prices. Some I can see on KnobCloud now for as low as 7 Euros.

Just to clarify for others seeing this, is that for the latest version that works standalone? I got it from a different (official) giveaway, but it's an older version that only runs as a Reaktor ensemble. Thought this was worth mentioning in case others are looking at the second hand market now.

[liquidsound]

It’s on 50% off until the 15th

It was given away with Loopcloud subscriptions not long ago. So, plenty of licenses still around on here / KnobCloud for even cheaper than NI's sale prices. Some I can see on KnobCloud now for as low as 7 Euros.

Just to clarify for others seeing this, is that for the latest version that works standalone? I got it from a different (official) giveaway, but it's an older version that only runs as a Reaktor ensemble. Thought this was worth mentioning in case others are looking at the second hand market now.

But it seems that the latest version is Reaktor only...