hi ...this seems to be a brand new technology dedicated here to compensate the static aspect of IRs of cabinet and speakers
I' for one, am wondering of the potential of it uses on different soundsources, Impulse responses or not
I downloaded the demo and began to investigate, anyone else being curious ?
IRDX Core by Bogren Digital... your opinion ?
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- KVRAF
- 6504 posts since 25 May, 2002 from Bobo-dioulasso\BF__Geneva/CH
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 6504 posts since 25 May, 2002 from Bobo-dioulasso\BF__Geneva/CH
cool...any early opinion ?
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- KVRian
- 1241 posts since 25 Jan, 2017
I've not tried it yet, but it sounded interesting on the many YT demos I've watched.
The big argument in the YT comment sections and in the GS thread, mostly revolves around the "dynamics" thing.
The thing the plugin does, trying to emulate cab speakers, is reacting dynamically to the input level.
It's a way to "drive" the guitar cab, which is usually not possible on IR loaders, resulting in some waveform distortion/compression and alteration of the EQ curve.
It also adds some noise and imperfections, to supposedly get a more realistic feel.
About the critics and arguing I've been reading for the last couple days...
Some people argue that guitar cab speakers are linear (physically impossible, disproved by research and basic observation of sound widely getting altered/distorted the more you crank up a speaker).
Some others argue about real cab speakers not affecting dynamics/compression differently from the corresponding IR capture at the same "speaker drive" level, which is a fair observation going against the IRDX marketing.
Some people argue they could get similar results by using their own custom chain of saturation/expansion/eq instead of using IRDX... but that's quite cumbersome workflow-wise compared to just having that single "speaker drive" knob which takes care of everything at once, gradually adjusting from light to heavy drive.
I have no idea how faithful that is to overdriving the cab on which the IR was originally recorded on, but it sounded like an interesting and handy tool to keep in the arsenal.
The big argument in the YT comment sections and in the GS thread, mostly revolves around the "dynamics" thing.
The thing the plugin does, trying to emulate cab speakers, is reacting dynamically to the input level.
It's a way to "drive" the guitar cab, which is usually not possible on IR loaders, resulting in some waveform distortion/compression and alteration of the EQ curve.
It also adds some noise and imperfections, to supposedly get a more realistic feel.
About the critics and arguing I've been reading for the last couple days...
Some people argue that guitar cab speakers are linear (physically impossible, disproved by research and basic observation of sound widely getting altered/distorted the more you crank up a speaker).
Some others argue about real cab speakers not affecting dynamics/compression differently from the corresponding IR capture at the same "speaker drive" level, which is a fair observation going against the IRDX marketing.
Some people argue they could get similar results by using their own custom chain of saturation/expansion/eq instead of using IRDX... but that's quite cumbersome workflow-wise compared to just having that single "speaker drive" knob which takes care of everything at once, gradually adjusting from light to heavy drive.
I have no idea how faithful that is to overdriving the cab on which the IR was originally recorded on, but it sounded like an interesting and handy tool to keep in the arsenal.
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Funkybot's Evil Twin Funkybot's Evil Twin https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=116627
- KVRAF
- 12443 posts since 16 Aug, 2006
I understand why they don't, but I wish they'd just tell us what they're doing here. Is it a combination of dynamic EQ (to emulate speaker dynamics) and saturation (to emulate speaker distortion)? If yes, why not offer controls to separate the effect? On the rare occasions I use IR's in a mix, I'll usually pop open a TDR Nova preset I made that reacts dynamically to the signal to try to emulate the dynamic speaker behavior. The effect is subtle but real. If this plugin is doing that and more, great! But Nova GE is free and does a good job at that. If this plugin is doing more, than I'd want more control. Why limit it? What if I don't want additional speaker distortions or they were already captures in the IR?
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- KVRist
- 413 posts since 26 May, 2018
Real-life speakers do sound differently according to the input power. That said, speaker saturation usually sounds like crap. (It sounds, essentially, choked). Distortion correlates with low frequency content, which is usually displeasing. They also exhibit (it is essentially the same thing) power compression, outputting lower power than you'd expect when pushed. If the speaker has a bass reflex port (bass cabinets usually) you also have to account for the diminishing effectiveness of the port when power rises (so higher power equals less bass, and if the port is underdimensioned enough, you should add in port noise as well).
That said, that's the way a speaker sounds like so if you want to emulate it you should account for at least some of these effects. You can either switch between different IRs (and add in some waveshaping which mirrors the original speaker's behaviour) relative to signal power, or the easy way is to just saturate the IRs output a bit with a soft clipper of sorts (a symmetrical waveshaper is usually fine). It will probably be good enough. If you have a traditional amp sim with a cabinet emulation, try adding in something like TesslaSE by Variety of Sound, the effect will probably be reminiscent of a real cabinet. If it's a bass cab, add in a dynamic EQ cutting the bass a bit over a certain threshold (a bass shelf below 150Hz mostly, with full effect around 45Hz) when digging in.
That said, that's the way a speaker sounds like so if you want to emulate it you should account for at least some of these effects. You can either switch between different IRs (and add in some waveshaping which mirrors the original speaker's behaviour) relative to signal power, or the easy way is to just saturate the IRs output a bit with a soft clipper of sorts (a symmetrical waveshaper is usually fine). It will probably be good enough. If you have a traditional amp sim with a cabinet emulation, try adding in something like TesslaSE by Variety of Sound, the effect will probably be reminiscent of a real cabinet. If it's a bass cab, add in a dynamic EQ cutting the bass a bit over a certain threshold (a bass shelf below 150Hz mostly, with full effect around 45Hz) when digging in.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 6504 posts since 25 May, 2002 from Bobo-dioulasso\BF__Geneva/CH
impressive feedback, all of you !!!!
One point I still expect to lift up here : could it be still relevant to use it on different kind of IRs, ...or even on other kind of signal ?
I tried shortly to use it on customized IRs and as far as I could hear, it seemed to warm up a bit all the static aspect of IRs,i'll have perhaps a bette exploitation if I understand deeper the ground of this technology ?
One point I still expect to lift up here : could it be still relevant to use it on different kind of IRs, ...or even on other kind of signal ?
I tried shortly to use it on customized IRs and as far as I could hear, it seemed to warm up a bit all the static aspect of IRs,i'll have perhaps a bette exploitation if I understand deeper the ground of this technology ?
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Funkybot's Evil Twin Funkybot's Evil Twin https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=116627
- KVRAF
- 12443 posts since 16 Aug, 2006
The other thing worth pointing out, Cabinetron is a great IR loader plugin, with excellent tagging and browsing, a ton of advanced features AND has a "Non-Lin" knob which is meant to simulate the nonlinear aspects of a cabinet. And all for not much more money than this. IRs sound better through Cabinetron. No extra plugin needed for the nonlinear part versus the cab loader part. Cabinetron is an all in one solution.
I'm happy enough with it not to even bother with this.
I'm happy enough with it not to even bother with this.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 6504 posts since 25 May, 2002 from Bobo-dioulasso\BF__Geneva/CH
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- KVRAF
- 7661 posts since 2 Sep, 2019
I haven’t tried this plugin yet, but I will. This kind of processing is important for realistic guitar tone. Convolution overlays a static gauze over everything it touches. It sounds stagnant and unnaturally filtered.
Softube has dynamic modeling built into their Celestion speaker plugin, because they also recognize its necessity. Maybe one day IK finally will, too.
Machine learning modeling, like IK’s TONEX, really needs to be dynamically capturing the amp and cab separately. The way TONEX works with separable “amp” and “cab” components is actually done simply with a 2-step process of separately calculating the linear and non-linear components. I’d like to see IK recapture all of the cabs with all of the mic positions again, but using machine learning instead of convolution to do it.
Softube has dynamic modeling built into their Celestion speaker plugin, because they also recognize its necessity. Maybe one day IK finally will, too.
Machine learning modeling, like IK’s TONEX, really needs to be dynamically capturing the amp and cab separately. The way TONEX works with separable “amp” and “cab” components is actually done simply with a 2-step process of separately calculating the linear and non-linear components. I’d like to see IK recapture all of the cabs with all of the mic positions again, but using machine learning instead of convolution to do it.
What are the settings for this preset? Could you share it?Funkybot's Evil Twin wrote: Sun Jan 14, 2024 3:27 pm On the rare occasions I use IR's in a mix, I'll usually pop open a TDR Nova preset I made that reacts dynamically to the signal to try to emulate the dynamic speaker behavior.
Last edited by jamcat on Mon Jan 15, 2024 4:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
THIS MUSIC HAS BEEN MIXED TO BE PLAYED LOUD SO TURN IT UP
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Funkybot's Evil Twin Funkybot's Evil Twin https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=116627
- KVRAF
- 12443 posts since 16 Aug, 2006
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- KVRAF
- 7661 posts since 2 Sep, 2019
Thanks a bot, Funkybunch. I'll give it a try.
This IRDX video was posted at Funkybot's link. To me it sounds super fantastic and works amazingly well. The gauzy convolution veil is totally lifted by IRDX!
This IRDX video was posted at Funkybot's link. To me it sounds super fantastic and works amazingly well. The gauzy convolution veil is totally lifted by IRDX!
THIS MUSIC HAS BEEN MIXED TO BE PLAYED LOUD SO TURN IT UP
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- KVRAF
- 1655 posts since 3 Mar, 2009 from Colorado Springs
I've been getting a lot of use out of Softube's Celestion Speaker Shaper plugin and it has optional speaker distortion that you can dial in greater or lesser. I like the plugin overall very much and have found it to give me very realistic results comparable to working with similar cabs with the same speakers in the physical. I haven't tried the Bogren offering yet but I'm certainly willing to - I only have the RevC from them but it's a great little slice of 'recto, and their IRs are nice.
Last edited by Agreed on Mon Jan 15, 2024 1:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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- KVRAF
- 1655 posts since 3 Mar, 2009 from Colorado Springs
Hrm. I have to be honest, this does not seem to behave like a speaker drive to me, so much as a saturator with some dynamics modulation. I can get a similar effect going if I make the EQ moves it's making manually and add some harmonics and a little exciter, but it's nice to get it in one step and the cumulative effect of the various moves its making can be effective to improve the sound and even influence the "feel" a bit. If I were pressed I would say that it does not to my ears truly recreate what happens when you start driving a speaker hard enough to get some "audible" nonlinearity / cone cry going on. But I like how it sounds in the spots that they suggest to put it.
Plus, realism to the specific marketed purpose vs. utility as a sound conditioner after IRs aside, I don't think its utility is going to be limited to guitar speakers simulation. Might be that a different company could have put this same code out without the guitar focused UI and with some other approach to marketing an EQ with some variable exciter and compression going on and I think that would have worked too, but Bogren is all about brutal guitar so it arrives thusly. Probably astutely marketed since Bogren is so well known for their IRs and there is a perception among users of IRs that there may still be something missing even with good ones, a product to fill that niche is a pretty good idea. But, I bet it'll rip on synth parts too for example, who knows what else.
I don't know if I'm going to go for it. Most of my guitar tracking chains already include EQ and dynamics. It is quick to use, though, that's worth something. I'll keep trialing it and think on it. If you are still just doing amp sim -> IR, this would probably improve the sound and feel of that. You're missing out, though, if tracking guitar is that barebones for you, what are you making, some kind of metal recorded in the forest but with a laptop?
Plus, realism to the specific marketed purpose vs. utility as a sound conditioner after IRs aside, I don't think its utility is going to be limited to guitar speakers simulation. Might be that a different company could have put this same code out without the guitar focused UI and with some other approach to marketing an EQ with some variable exciter and compression going on and I think that would have worked too, but Bogren is all about brutal guitar so it arrives thusly. Probably astutely marketed since Bogren is so well known for their IRs and there is a perception among users of IRs that there may still be something missing even with good ones, a product to fill that niche is a pretty good idea. But, I bet it'll rip on synth parts too for example, who knows what else.
I don't know if I'm going to go for it. Most of my guitar tracking chains already include EQ and dynamics. It is quick to use, though, that's worth something. I'll keep trialing it and think on it. If you are still just doing amp sim -> IR, this would probably improve the sound and feel of that. You're missing out, though, if tracking guitar is that barebones for you, what are you making, some kind of metal recorded in the forest but with a laptop?