Which daw has the best CPU load management?

[PAK]

don't know about you but 90% or more of my tracks are not polyphonic chords on heavy CPU plugins,

What?! Next thing you’ll be telling us you don’t like supersaws?!

For fun I can do it though

Twas the spirit of the suggestion

Though I’d still consider it an impressive achievement when any CPU can fit a full quality, full polyphony, single instance of Diva into one of its cores

It's a bit of a "worst case scenario" type test. Plus I think knowing Diva's possible polyphony count (at Divine) is maybe a more relevant and interesting number (for audio users) than a Cinebench score

[machinesworking]

So this is what Core Audio was about more than 15 years ago

The push to kill KEXT's is more recent, and I reckon they're going to end support completely with the end of Intel support (likely in about 2 years time?.. We'll see )

Yeah, that's not true at all, in any way shape or form.

You’re honestly arguing AU hasn’t historically had more issues?! Perhaps you have examples of lots of AU plugins, coded prior to 2009, which continued to function on current hosts right up until 32 bit support was pulled? I’m genuinely curious to know what they are if you do?.. The number of VST 2 plugins which could achieve this are too numerous to mention, but included well known older plugins like Pro-53, FM7, Steinberg Hypersonic 2 etc.

Me-thinks you’re confusing this ability with the numerous (well documented) issues with the transition to VST 3. That isn't quite the same thing as Apple completely breaking your ability to load your plugins. Not even close.

Apple (naturally) use their own software to push their own standards. If they update Logic and AU in some way which breaks things for 3rd parties then the attitude is “too bad”. If users want to be subject to that whim then that’s ok, just as long as you know what using AU means. I would rather a standard like CLAP succeeded over either of them btw ;)

So no, in no way is VST less likely to cause issues, at least not in my experience, but aren't you a Cubase user? AU is historically less likely to cause problems, I mean since 2004 or so. Live is the host I've used since 2003, AU and VST compatible. At some point everyone got used to VST2, but early on it was a total mess on OS X, and was even worse in OS 9. MAS and RTAS etc. was far more stable.

The history of this is pretty straightforward, it's not about Apple needing to make a plugin format to screw up developers or hype new OS versions and hardware, it's flatly about Steinbergs poor documentation for VST plugin hosting. Emagic and MOTU very quickly adopted AU and others followed, because frankly VSTs crashed Mac OS all the time. This was way before Emagic was bought by Apple and Logic became and Apple product. These developers were eager to use AU because the hosting documentation is good, and the very format forces more Mac OS standards, i.e. cross platform plugins won't crash on Mac OS moving forward as much.

VST2 is looking good the last 5-7 years I would say, probably longer for Cubase for obvious reasons, but VST3 is a hot mess, there's a reason CLAP came around, and frankly it should have happened back when Apple introduced AU and Steinberg was pushing VST3. CLAP should be the only format, VST and AU are problematic for us and developers in many ways, let Cubase and Logic deal with wrappers and eventually give in.

I have not found any rhyme or reason to whether a VST or AU ports from an extreme OS change. AU plugins indeed would load from Power PC sets, same with VST, with Apple Silicon it's all over the board, hardly any plugins that are the same as before have issues, but hardly any plugins I own didn't change drastically or upgrade. Like I said my main DAWs both load AU and VST, and in both there is no consistency on which worked better. Unfortunately not one of the VST3 only on Apple Silicon plugins loaded the VST2 like some report. So no, my experience there has been drastically different than yours, but again, maybe Cubase does this better than other DAWs, which isn't surprising at all.

I wouldn't bet on anything with Apple in terms of KEXT, but if anything they aren't going to let high end audio interfaces work better on Windows machines, so worrying about it is a moot point.

[PAK]

So no, in no way is VST less likely to cause issues, at least not in my experience, but aren't you a Cubase user?

Yes, and I should’ve also clarified my experience (and thus comments) relate specifically to the Intel period, and VST2 was already at 2.4 by the point I was using any of it. Once you count in the period prior to this (and the reasons why Apple created AU in the first place) you’re perfectly correct to call what I said into question, and I apologise for any misunderstanding there.

So I’m not arguing against the fact Apple had good reasons to create its own format, nor do I think their goal is to mess with developers. But I do think having the OS developer be the same company, controlling a plugin standard, comes with its own set of issues (not all of them bad, of course). Either way, I think at least we can both agree too many people think Mac OS has more problems (than it actually has) when it comes to plugins

VST2 is looking good the last 5-7 years I would say

Not sure how long it was (without checking) from VST 2.4 to VST3’s launch, but I was counting more on the fact that those elderly VST2’s continued to function, without major issue, up until the demise of 32 bit support. Some of the plugins were over a decade old at that point.

I didn’t really start moving to VST3 until 2021, precisely because I wanted to avoid the various issues with it too My comments were really aimed specifically at when changes are made to the point where a plugin can no longer be loaded and, if discontinued, is thus lost to time. My words could've been much better chosen there, and hopefully the fact I myself mostly avoided VST3 for the first 7+ years helps clarify that a bit

[syntonica]

Again, over the years VST has never been more stable than AU, you're safe using either, and personally I instal all three because both of my main DAWs (DP and Live), handle all three formats, and all three can have issues in a particular DAW, so it's really unlikely that the instability is in all three formats.

Really, the only unstable plugins I've found, barring glaring bugs, is plugins that are wrapped from another format: VST->AU, VST3->AU, VST3<->VST, etc. That said, VST3 is pure evil and requires many awful workarounds to get the same functionality as an equivalent VST2, which may make it quite janky.

[machinesworking]

Again, over the years VST has never been more stable than AU, you're safe using either, and personally I instal all three because both of my main DAWs (DP and Live), handle all three formats, and all three can have issues in a particular DAW, so it's really unlikely that the instability is in all three formats.

Really, the only unstable plugins I've found, barring glaring bugs, is plugins that are wrapped from another format: VST->AU, VST3->AU, VST3<->VST, etc. That said, VST3 is pure evil and requires many awful workarounds to get the same functionality as an equivalent VST2, which may make it quite janky.

Same as it ever was IMO, people doing whatever they can to port as quickly as possible to AU or VST3, or from Windows. All of this is why CLAP is the format of the future, and I hope it becomes the dominant one before I'm too freaking old to care.

[machinesworking]

Not sure how long it was (without checking) from VST 2.4 to VST3’s launch, but I was counting more on the fact that those elderly VST2’s continued to function, without major issue, up until the demise of 32 bit support. Some of the plugins were over a decade old at that point.

I didn’t really start moving to VST3 until 2021, precisely because I wanted to avoid the various issues with it too My comments were really aimed specifically at when changes are made to the point where a plugin can no longer be loaded and, if discontinued, is thus lost to time. My words could've been much better chosen there, and hopefully the fact I myself mostly avoided VST3 for the first 7+ years helps clarify that a bit

VST3 was introduced in 2008. Crazy how long it's been.

Mostly AU and VST are subject to one thing and one thing very clearly on Mac OS, the unrelenting progress to the newest chip that Apple ports to. It has nothing to do with VST or AU, I saw no difference in portability to the next chip, mostly the only reason something wouldn't port over would be a company upgrading the plugin to get to Intel or Apple Silicon, i.e. Kontakt 5 will never be native VST on Apple Silicon, and if you didn't save the patch for the song you were working on, you're going to have fun loading that patch exactly like you had it. 32 bit support wasn't something I noticed VSTs have a superior porting with than AU, I actually don't remember that being that big of a deal? Probably because Mac OS ported almost completely to 64 bit around the same time as the Intel transition. There was a few programs that ported plugins for you if you needed them, 32 lives etc.

Anyway all of this is mostly behind us I believe, Apple Silicon is their end game, there's no reason for a two trillion dollar company to not be able to keep up with AMD and Intel, at least enough to keep them relevant.

[PAK]

VST3 was introduced in 2008. Crazy how long it's been.

Yep. Also tells its own story regarding how they had to piggy back, on the Apple Silicon transition, to finally push it through..

I actually don't remember that being that big of a deal? Probably because Mac OS ported almost completely to 64 bit around the same time as the Intel transition.

The plugin move to 64 bit definitely lagged for a while after the initial Intel transition, since pretty much all of the plugins (I was talking about) were left at 32 Bit. If something made it to 64 bit there’s a fair chance it got a VST3 or at least stuck around until the Apple Silicon transition.

You likely don’t remember because most “worthwhile” things made it across. A few Steinberg things didn’t because of the way they had done deals with 3rd party devs (EG They had no way to update Hypersonic 2 to 64 bit). Another big thing (at least for its users) was the Powercore plugins. Thus why the 32 Bit Lives website made a big deal about its Powercore plugin support.

BTW: You can now take presets, saved with the Virus Powercore VST, and have the DSP56300 emulation load them up without issue on Apple Silicon! There must be some sort of irony in how something, which looked the least likely, actually ended up making it over to Apple Silicon in one way or another..

Apple Silicon is their end game, there's no reason for a two trillion dollar company to not be able to keep up with AMD and Intel, at least enough to keep them relevant.

Yes. If anything, they’ve still to go through some of the changes Apple already has, and I think the Windows side of things is in for a pretty bumpy ride over the next few years..

[machinesworking]

Yes. If anything, they’ve still to go through some of the changes Apple already has, and I think the Windows side of things is in for a pretty bumpy ride over the next few years..

My guess is they hold on to x86 until it's not viable, which could mean a long time. I don't see drastic change as the strong point to those companies.

It's an interesting issue in a way, from my perspective both sides have some advantages. There's no denying the advantage of the Mac Studio Ultra here, I've never heard the fan, ever, and it's tiny. IMO the fact is though you can get Kontakt 3 working on Windows from what I hear, so songs from 15 years ago will load if you have the same plugins. You can of course port, I'm in the process of doing that, porting songs from an Intel Mac Pro, so making sure that the same versions are in the projects and that there's a preset when I cant do that.

[PAK]

My guess is they hold on to x86 until it's not viable, which could mean a long time. I don't see drastic change as the strong point to those companies.

Yes, that's where they’re heading right now - where regular x86 cores stay as “performance cores” whilst adding other core configurations alongside, and Microsoft attempts to manage it all. The new situation appears not without cost though - if the difficulties some devs are having are anything to go by.

EG Some of Korg plugins don’t work properly on certain x64 CPU’s, and there’s no sign of them “fixing” that. Reading between the lines (… ) it seems they’re more concerned with not messing up threading, for the latest CPU’s, than fixing the older configs. They’ve also went Windows 11 only with their latest plugins. So no PC’s older than 6 years (Win 11 is 8th Gen or newer). I wonder what percentage of KVR is on that side of the fence? I think it’s going to come as a rude awakening, to a lot of Windows users, if they soon find themselves locked out of using many of the latest things..

In terms of Cubase (12+) it also doesn't seem to work well with certain PC configs (more than has traditionally been the case). Granted, issues will likely increase with hardware age, and some might say it's more of a Steinberg issue than anything to do with more recent hardware changes. And maybe that's true. But the Mac side appears to have less issues, and that's definitely been my own experience. Whether that's a sign of where their priorities are, or it's for other reasons, I don't know. But I decided I'd rather take an easier time on the Apple Silicon side for now

Re: any push to ARM etc, I don’t think that’s likely to happen until they get a Rosetta type solution (with decent performance) in place, and it'll probably be Microsoft pushing for it, rather than Intel/AMD. Though I suppose, depending on how Apple’s laptop market share goes, that could change.

[machinesworking]

My guess is they hold on to x86 until it's not viable, which could mean a long time. I don't see drastic change as the strong point to those companies.

Yes, that's where they’re heading right now - where regular x86 cores stay as “performance cores” whilst adding other core configurations alongside, and Microsoft attempts to manage it all. The new situation appears not without cost though - if the difficulties some devs are having are anything to go by.

EG Some of Korg plugins don’t work properly on certain x64 CPU’s, and there’s no sign of them “fixing” that. Reading between the lines (… ) it seems they’re more concerned with not messing up threading, for the latest CPU’s, than fixing the older configs. They’ve also went Windows 11 only with their latest plugins. So no PC’s older than 6 years (Win 11 is 8th Gen or newer). I wonder what percentage of KVR is on that side of the fence? I think it’s going to come as a rude awakening, to a lot of Windows users, if they soon find themselves locked out of using many of the latest things..

In terms of Cubase (12+) it also doesn't seem to work well with certain PC configs (more than has traditionally been the case). Granted, issues will likely increase with hardware age, and some might say it's more of a Steinberg issue than anything to do with more recent hardware changes. And maybe that's true. But the Mac side appears to have less issues, and that's definitely been my own experience. Whether that's a sign of where their priorities are, or it's for other reasons, I don't know. But I decided I'd rather take an easier time on the Apple Silicon side for now

Re: any push to ARM etc, I don’t think that’s likely to happen until they get a Rosetta type solution (with decent performance) in place, and it'll probably be Microsoft pushing for it, rather than Intel/AMD. Though I suppose, depending on how Apple’s laptop market share goes, that could change.

Yep, the Arm issue is there with bells on. Whatever issue Apple has (besides no interest in the market share) with massive multi core Arm CPU's will be solved by the time AMD and Intel are really gearing for that market if they ever do. The splintering of interests is going to make porting that much harder, Qualcom is making most of the Android chips and has a leg up on AMD/Intel and that could be a real shake up, but the lack of a Windows version of Rosetta to push it forward is obvious. Microsoft already have an Arm Surface, it's just underpowered and only runs Office and Photoshop. It's been out longer than Apple Silicon macs, and generates almost no interest, because the whole thing is also underpowered.

Cubase is weird, 20 years ago it was vastly superior on PC, and ten years ago the DAW had issues with CPU performance on Mac only when low latency settings were chosen, this did not affect the Windows version, then years later there were some issues with graphics on PC. Now it seems it's just working better on Mac in general according to you and others.

I'll never figure that out, Live I hear has had issues lately on PC, but that's a first to me, Live has typically been good on either platform.

[PAK]

Cubase is weird, 20 years ago it was vastly superior on PC, and ten years ago the DAW had issues with CPU performance on Mac only when low latency settings were chosen, this did not affect the Windows version, then years later there were some issues with graphics on PC. Now it seems it's just working better on Mac in general according to you and others.

An early clue, something might be off, was when they tried to bring a more Mac-like windowing system to Cubase 7.5 (iirc) on Windows. They only recently changed it back to more typical Windows behaviour in Cubase 13! I don’t know if that was an early indicator that some of their devs might've preferred the Mac’s way of doing things. I think the “official” reason they gave is they wanted “consistency between platforms”..

There might also be other contributing factors.. EG If you let employees, of a music related company, choose their laptop, guess what brand most of them are going to pick?

Live I hear has had issues lately on PC, but that's a first to me, Live has typically been good on either platform.

I don't know, but it wouldn't surprise me. I don't think many hosts are having an easy time having to deal with these multiple core type CPU's whilst keeping things running well on legacy hardware..

[machinesworking]

An early clue, something might be off, was when they tried to bring a more Mac-like windowing system to Cubase 7.5 (iirc) on Windows. They only recently changed it back to more typical Windows behaviour in Cubase 13! I don’t know if that was an early indicator that some of their devs might've preferred the Mac’s way of doing things. I think the “official” reason they gave is they wanted “consistency between platforms”..

There might also be other contributing factors.. EG If you let employees, of a music related company, choose their laptop, guess what brand most of them are going to pick?

They 100% have Windows and Mac OS specialists working there for decades even. I would guess that subtle changes to the OS can conflict with core developments in a DAW, i.e. early on Steinberg focused on Windows a bit because multitasking was better, plus the plugin market exploded on the Windows side in the early 2000's. Some of this gets determined by other factors. Intel screwed up power down functions on early centrino chips for Mac OS at one point causing glitches in the system etc. Some new chip and changes to the OS could give Windows Cubase some stability etc.

...and yeah, the reason I went whole hog on the Mac Studio was because I didn't want to give up my M1 Air which does fantastically with DAWs. I figure keep the over 4k item at home. My only gripe there is I really like my touch screen Raven, and wish Apple would give in. It's the one area I think windows laptops are great in.

I don't know, but it wouldn't surprise me. I don't think many hosts are having an easy time having to deal with these multiple core type CPU's whilst keeping things running well on legacy hardware..

IMO and this is an unpopular opinion I think, it's really best to leave that up to the OS as much as possible. I do not believe DAW and plugin developers know better than Apple or Microsoft how to allocate resources per core. Exception would be Bitwig, but I'm betting that's helped enormously by it's sandboxing, i.e. it tells the OS to treat Diva on that track like a separate instance. In my own experience plugins that were misbehaving are coming into line with updates, to the OS and their own updates.


Here's the rub though, putting multicore support on in a powerful computer with a modern CPU just seems to always give vastly smaller track counts, i.e. it gets in the way of the DAW/OS communication and messes things up. It made much more sense ten years ago when CPUs would be crushed by a single instance of Diva in divine mode.

[PAK]

IMO and this is an unpopular opinion I think, it's really best to leave that up to the OS as much as possible. I do not believe DAW and plugin developers know better than Apple or Microsoft how to allocate resources per core.

The irony there, of course, is apparently Logic only uses performance cores (regardless of settings). So even Apple’s own music production solution takes a slightly different path from purely OS management. Particularly with the M2 Ultra, Logic is leaving a lot of potential performance off of the table.

The major difficulty for doing what you suggest, on Windows, is that Microsoft introduced a new thread director on Windows 11, designed to better manage a new “multiple core types” world. But, by keeping it a Windows 11 exclusive, whilst Windows 10 still makes up a big chunk of most companies user base, it’s likely helped complicate things. I reckon it’s also a contributing factor (beyond just official "support" reasons) for why a company, like Korg, seems to be wasting no time in ditching Windows 10..

[Jim Roseberry]

The major difficulty for doing what you suggest, on Windows, is that Microsoft introduced a new thread director on Windows 11, designed to better manage a new “multiple core types” world. But, by keeping it a Windows 11 exclusive, whilst Windows 10 still makes up a big chunk of most companies user base, it’s likely helped complicate things. I reckon it’s also a contributing factor (beyond just official "support" reasons) for why a company, like Korg, seems to be wasting no time in ditching Windows 10..

In later versions of Win10, Microsoft broke the ability to disable CPU Core Parking (with 12th and 13th Gen CPUs).

Many of us were waiting for a compelling reason to make the move to Win11.
This was that compelling reason (especially if working at lowest possible latency).

I've head this issue has since been addressed (fixed) in Win10.
At this point, there's no good reason to go back.

Aside from the Core Parking issue, we've seen little/no performance difference between Win10 and Win11.
Don't upgrade expecting the new Thread Director to dramatically increase performance.


I have a Mac Studio with M.2 Ultra CPU and 64GB RAM.
Also have 13900k with 64GB RAM... and a 14700k with 64GB RAM.
I'll do some performance tests with Cubase 13 on both platforms.

[osiris]

I have an Intel Win 11 laptop and the first few weeks was bugged by something called Intel Optane Memory and Storage Management every time I used my DAW, it would freak out. So, I do some digging and find out I don't think I even have one of those enabled chips in the computer. Disabled with no problems. I think Intel has since discontinued it.