Live 12 or Bitwig 5.1

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xbitz wrote: Wed Jan 17, 2024 9:28 am It's clear even on the early devices that an array of note blocks(arrays) can be handled, so it is likely or hopefully there will be some kind of Swiss Army knife generator-transformer hybrid device that can perform all operations without having to switch between transformation tools (when the connection between the transformation tool and the piano roll is broken) and hopefully it will also have some kind of selection generator too.
For creating notes, that looks both impressive and frustrating. I suppose if you don't know what you are doing/want and you just want to throw notes up there until you like something, such tools are useful. If you do know what you want, then Live's Midi Step Input is far better. It's more accurate, specific and immediate plus once you become fluid with it, super fast.

I suspect few people use the Midi Step Input though.

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pdxindy wrote: Wed Jan 17, 2024 3:18 pm
machinesworking wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2024 8:00 pm
If you want to go there with Logic, then I would add that DP11 has even more insane selections. You can go in and select the fourth beat in every other measure to alter, there's a MIDI 'compression' tool etc.
Yeah, Logic and DP have some impressive midi editing tools. At least in Logic though, they are old school and not accessible and fast in the way users expect today.
They don’t exist at all in other DAWs, that was my point. You might be able to put something together in the Grid or Max that selects only the 6th note in every other measure between measure 24 and 32 but it’s going to take you longer than manually doing it. In DP that’s not hard at all.

In particular Bitwig in turn does things like probability setting etc. which I don’t see in other DAWs

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pdxindy wrote: Wed Jan 17, 2024 3:29 pm I suspect few people use the Midi Step Input though.
Love step input, with fold and preview feels like a drum machine just zipping around with the curse keys, but also good for step inputting chords then just using the curser to make it the length you want.

That said, some of the things I would have used step input for (complex high hats etc) I may now use the midi generators to start, as they basically do complex 'fill' patterns which is even faster to get started. I used to love this on the Polyend Tracker so great to now have it in Live.
X32 and 24C mixers, S88MK3, Live + PUSH 3, Osmose, RedShift 6, Pro3, S4, Tempera, Syntakt, Digitone, OP1-F, OPXY, TR-1000, Eurorack, TD27 Drums, Guitars, Basses, Amps and of course lots of pedals!

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So...If I were to purchase any of these 2 full versions today, and keep them updated for the next 3 years, the cost would be something like this:

1. Bitwig Studio 5.1:

$399 (17/01/2024 - 17/01/2025)
$169 (18/01/2025 - 18/01/2026)
$169 (19/01/2026 - 19/01/2027)

Total: $737

2. Ableton Live 11(12) Suite:

$599 (17/01/2024 - ??)

Total: $599

Which would make more sense to you?

Surprised Bitwig ends up being costlier (or at the very least almost the same if Ableton at full $749 price). I thought it was cheaper. And you potentially would keep Ableton Live updated for longer if Live 13 doesn't come in the next 3 years.
Last edited by Yorrrrrr on Wed Jan 17, 2024 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Ableton must have updated their pricing, because this is what Google still tells me and I can remember it being way more expensive than $599,-
Live 11. Suite. Complete studio – 70+ GB of sounds and all devices. Original price USD 749 ;
If you wait on the sales, then Bitwig is around the same price point:
- Summer sale $299,--
- Upgrade plan $129,- times 2 equals $258,-
- Total of $557,-

Don't forget about people hording paid Max4Live devices like a stamp collection. So in the end Ableton is way more expensive for certain people :hihi:

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Bitwigs updates are typically a lot less than $169 (closer to $110) as on sale several times a year, but I guess you could argue Live goes on sale as well! Ultimately its cost versus value...sometimes the Bigwig updates are great, but its a lottery (I havent been that bothered about the last few) but again, sometimes the free Live point updates have also been amazing! cat go wrong either way ;-)
X32 and 24C mixers, S88MK3, Live + PUSH 3, Osmose, RedShift 6, Pro3, S4, Tempera, Syntakt, Digitone, OP1-F, OPXY, TR-1000, Eurorack, TD27 Drums, Guitars, Basses, Amps and of course lots of pedals!

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muzicxs wrote: Wed Jan 17, 2024 4:33 pm Ableton must have updated their pricing, because this is what Google still tells me and I can remember it being way more expensive than $599,-
Live 11. Suite. Complete studio – 70+ GB of sounds and all devices. Original price USD 749 ;
If you wait on the sales, then Bitwig is around the same price point:
- Summer sale $299,--
- Upgrade plan $129,- times 2 equals $258,-
- Total of $557,-

Don't forget about people hording paid Max4Live devices like a stamp collection. So in the end Ableton is way more expensive for certain people :hihi:
Not if you count all the VSTs you have to buy to give Bigwig the same functionality as Live :lol:
X32 and 24C mixers, S88MK3, Live + PUSH 3, Osmose, RedShift 6, Pro3, S4, Tempera, Syntakt, Digitone, OP1-F, OPXY, TR-1000, Eurorack, TD27 Drums, Guitars, Basses, Amps and of course lots of pedals!

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I think I would give Bitwig Studio a shot to complement Live 12 Suite (I like the comprehensive modulation system), but I'm not too happy about the cost structure to be honest.

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SLiC wrote: Wed Jan 17, 2024 4:34 pm Not if you count all the VSTs you have to buy to give Bigwig the same functionality as Live :lol:
I couldn't disagree more. I have reduced my VST collection substantially by going to Bitwig, but YMMV. It does show that you don't seem to understand the modular concept of Bitwig. Which is fine, but then don't blame it on Bitwig :hihi:

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Yorrrrrr wrote: Wed Jan 17, 2024 4:36 pm I think I would give Bitwig Studio a shot to complement Live 12 Suite (I like the comprehensive modulation system), but I'm not too happy about the cost structure to be honest.
You can definitely use both at your advantage. For me, when I was in the mood for Ambient, I would do my work in both and use the Diva or Hive CLAP version in Bitwig.
I have a bookmark in BW for the temporary Ableton folder and just get the Crop audio into BW and keep going. Very fluid workflow.
ABEFLGMOPPRRST :phones:

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muzicxs wrote: Wed Jan 17, 2024 4:41 pm
SLiC wrote: Wed Jan 17, 2024 4:34 pm Not if you count all the VSTs you have to buy to give Bigwig the same functionality as Live :lol:
I couldn't disagree more. I have reduced my VST collection substantially by going to Bitwig, but YMMV. It does show that you don't seem to understand the modular concept of Bitwig. Which is fine, but then don't blame it on Bitwig :hihi:
So you don’t care about quality… :hihi:
ABEFLGMOPPRRST :phones:

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muzicxs wrote: Wed Jan 17, 2024 4:41 pm
SLiC wrote: Wed Jan 17, 2024 4:34 pm Not if you count all the VSTs you have to buy to give Bigwig the same functionality as Live :lol:
I couldn't disagree more. I have reduced my VST collection substantially by going to Bitwig, but YMMV. It does show that you don't seem to understand the modular concept of Bitwig. Which is fine, but then don't blame it on Bitwig :hihi:
Well, it was just a joke and I have owned had Bitwig since V1 (I also and have 500hp+ of eurorack so pretty sure I get modular concepts :D ). But Grid only goes so far- how do you do retrospective record? Step input? Audio to Midi? Extract Groove (and pool it...), Comp Midi! etc...Live has its advantages.
X32 and 24C mixers, S88MK3, Live + PUSH 3, Osmose, RedShift 6, Pro3, S4, Tempera, Syntakt, Digitone, OP1-F, OPXY, TR-1000, Eurorack, TD27 Drums, Guitars, Basses, Amps and of course lots of pedals!

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liquidsound wrote: Wed Jan 17, 2024 4:47 pm So you don’t care about quality… :hihi:
I do, that's why I ended up with Bitwig, and not with Ableton :hihi:

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SLiC wrote: Wed Jan 17, 2024 4:34 pm Not if you count all the VSTs you have to buy to give Bigwig the same functionality as Live :lol:
As someone whose on this for decades, the built in FX or instruments of a DAW have almost ZERO interest to me. 400 odd VSTs say I really don't need another built in synth in my DAW unless it gets some sort of benefit from being embedded, but articulation maps, ARA, MIDI improvements etc. would be useful. Unfortunately most people are wowed by a new effect or instrument.

Granted in both Bitwigs and Lives case, the built in FX and instruments are getting some cool things, but it's still a sticking point to me that improvements to the arrangers in them are ignored in favor of some synth with filters that are in key, or polyphonic modulation etc.

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muzicxs wrote: Wed Jan 17, 2024 4:57 pm
liquidsound wrote: Wed Jan 17, 2024 4:47 pm So you don’t care about quality… :hihi:
I do, that's why I ended up with Bitwig, and not with Ableton :hihi:
Exactly my point. :clap:
ABEFLGMOPPRRST :phones:

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