Live 12 or Bitwig 5.1

[SLiC]

I doubt the big three (Apple-AU, Cubase-VST3, ProTools-AAX) will ever support it, but I'm sure everybody else eventually will. One format to rule them all, and in darkness bind them!

Without Logic, Cubase and Protools it’s not really that mainstream. I don’t think Ableton will join in either, maybe Studio One. Currently it’s very niche and it way stay that way, but even if it does just having the UHE stuff and Bitwig is cool.

Ableton, FL Studio and Studio One will all support CLAP. FL and S1 first.

AVID is interested in CLAP. That's because Epic wants to support CLAP for their Unreal Engine. If Epic does, then AVID will too.

That would be good as I have all of those, was that said officially somewhere?

I am surprised about Live (not bothered about Logic ) does that mean they will support all CLAP features or just support it as a plugin?

[pdxindy]

That would be good as I have all of those, was that said officially somewhere?

I am surprised about Live (not bothered about Logic ) does that mean they will support all CLAP features or just support it as a plugin?

Ableton was unhappy about VST3.

They all have a vested interest in being less dependent on Steinberg who is a direct competitor.

There have been (unofficial) statements made, but I don't want to paraphrase. Go search them out if you want.

[SLiC]

I haven't seen anything personally and am not so sure it will catch on fast...whilst there are some great developers involved, its a format on probably less than 1% of instruments currently and I suspect a few DAW manufacturers are waiting to see if it catches on...its a bit of a chicken and egg situation....That said, It works great in Bitwig and its a real bonus on some plugins.

[xbitz]

MuLab supports the .clap format, which means its plugin version can open .clap plugins in any DAW. However, it works best with Cubase because it can send the 'space' button press signal from the focused plugins back to the host(plugin>MuLab>Cubase). This feature is unique to the MuLab plugins within Cubase; other hosts seem to block the transport start/stop signal dunno why

[apoclypse]

I doubt the big three (Apple-AU, Cubase-VST3, ProTools-AAX) will ever support it, but I'm sure everybody else eventually will. One format to rule them all, and in darkness bind them!

Without Logic, Cubase and Protools it’s not really that mainstream. I don’t think Ableton will join in either, maybe Studio One. Currently it’s very niche and it way stay that way, but even if it does just having the UHE stuff and Bitwig is cool.

Ableton, FL Studio and Studio One will all support CLAP. FL and S1 first.

AVID is interested in CLAP. That's because Epic wants to support CLAP for their Unreal Engine. If Epic does, then AVID will too.

All I've seen so far is some nebulous statements about evaluating the plugin format. I have yet to see anyone say they will support the format or are actively working on the format. Some of those statements are close to 2 years old at this point. Evaluating and implementing a very different things. Since your statement is so authoritative I'm sure you can back it up with sources.

[pdxindy]

I suspect a few DAW manufacturers are waiting to see if it catches on...

Perhaps so. I would add that CLAP is in the midst of catching on. It's not 'if'. It is already happening and the pace is fairly fast. It is on the FL Studio to-do list and is just a question of when. Studio One will add it, just like they supported DAWProject. MuLab recently added CLAP support.

Fabfilter released CLAP versions. The first step was to release CLAP versions. The second step will be supporting some CLAP capabilities. I suspect it will be an iterative process like that for various developers. And yes, there are other developers already working on it but who will announce it when they release it.

[syntonica]

...other hosts seem to block the transport start/stop signal dunno why

Don't get me started on how hosts and plugins hog the keyboard. Both Windows and MacOS are designed to send keyboard strokes to the windows that has FOCUS, i.e. the window that the user has selected and is working in. If the current window doesn't want the keystroke, is supposed to pass it up the food chain.

Some hosts grab ALL keystrokes. For reasons... They have to literally make an effort to override standard OS behavior. Apparently they believe their users are to stupid to figure out window focus for themselves.

Some plugins don't properly pass unwanted keystrokes but, instead, throw them in the bit bucket. Apparently, some devs are too stupid to figure out how this works .

/rant off

[Bako]

I've noticed this thread while ago but intentionaly kept avoiding ingaging into discussion , cos I don't like usually comparing DAW's . this or that , which one wins . I've had bitwig license from version 1 and at times i was very impressed the other times
was neutral. recently sliped into Ablton land but i had discovered in version 1 as well .I think it was 2000 if not mistaken Live invented a wheel of different kind of DAW . they kept improving it frequently , every year new release untill version 8 and slowed down and got little lazy cos we are Ableton are untouchable kind of thing untill Bitwig came along , took lot from ableton but we don't know may be devs from ableton who created Bitwig were inventors of the things they have taken to Bitwig but anyhow my point is that both DAWa are good and yet similar and contesting feature to feature would be stupid thing to do . one DAW alway has somethin better implemented then the other . Live has better devices and i'm not just saying it. it is a fact . Bitwig' devices look better .you can achieve a lot with Max for Live , well practicaly you can create devices of highest level . Bitwig's devices are not as good without saying they are bad . I like Grid for its fast generative abilities and wish ableton could have something like that as alternative to Max for faster generative workflow . Live has more intuitive and faster workflow and now more importantly with arrival of Live 12 it is game back on . 12 is a big upgrade and my prediction is that Ableton is getting off their asses realizing that Bitwig is catching on and it is a good thing . I predict even more substential features in subsequent Live 12 releases 12.1 , 12.2 etc there's big difference between Live 11 and 12 . Bitwig will have eventualy may be from next version something like Max or they will open API to third party extention developement so interesting thing will happen that's what I think . I have now Live licese and increasingly happy with it . Live 12 again is a big update . when final release is up I advise to check at least demo out if you are udecided . my biggest reason for diving into Live is a quality of devices and faster more intuitive workflow and juicy 12 . there you go my 2 ceents.

[pdxindy]

12 is a big upgrade and my prediction is that Ableton is getting off their asses realizing that Bitwig is catching on and it is a good thing .

I doubt Ableton pays much attention to Bitwig. I would say Ableton is competing with FL Studio. FL Studio has a similar level of popularity as Live. Bitwig has a tiny userbase compared to either of those two.

FL Studio is known for a great piano roll. Live V12 has significantly expanded its piano roll capability.

[machinesworking]

You're done cause that video blew away your argument and you are unwilling to admit it that it is freakin impressive... and so you started in on the name calling.

Never bothered addressing this, because you simply don't get it, you're obsessed with "winning" your hyper partisan objective whatever it is, to the point you're not listening to what others are saying, and at that point it's just not worth the time to have a conversation anymore. So, that's why I said I'm done.

Here, because you're for some reason slow about this, this is the breakdown.

Hey it's great that AAS synths are MPE in Live.

Yeah, other physical modeling synths are better.

OK sometimes simple is good for MPE.

Well I challenge you to do make something I like as much as this!


I fail to see how this is an adult conversation?

[ESMedia24]

@audiouser720
I did not read everything and therefore do not know if you've made your decision yet, but I want to tell you anyhow that I am selling my Ableton Live 11 Standard License atm for 150,00 € (upgrade to 12 included), in case you are interested. The transfer will be handled via Ableton.

I like the UI and the workflow a lot, but I want to make orchestral music and did not recognize that I would need to upgrade to the full suite or buy Max4Life and an extension, to be able to handle articulations in an easy manner etc. For electronic music it's top notch, I think.

I do not like the UI of Bitwig (way too dark for me). Apart from that I have no opinion as I did not test the software.

Regards

Erich

[SLiC]

FYI -The AAS devices (Analog, Collision, Corpus, Electric, and Tension) are now available in the Live 12 'Standard' edition.

[syntonica]

I have to say, as an owner of the AAS suite, they no longer sound as good as they should. The plugins are resource hogs of the worst kind, especially the new dual-engine incarnations, so I avoid using them. I hope the Live versions are more well-behaved for y'all.

I could get better sounds out of Tassman. I wish they'd just update Tassman...

[pdxindy]

Hey it's great that AAS synths are MPE in Live.

I said the same thing myself

Yeah, other physical modeling synths are better.

And other synths that aren't even physical modeling synths but which can effectively model sounds and which have significantly more control of the sound. Hell, the just announced Zebralette 3 which is a single solitary Osc is in a whole other league for modeling acoustic percussion compared to Chromaphone. It also has more sophisticated MPE control.

OK sometimes simple is good for MPE.

And sometimes it's not. The AAS synths do not allow modulation of some of the core modeling parameters. The ways in which you can control the sound over time and with MPE are limited. Also, pitch bending doesn't sound so natural in their synths.

You keep accusing me of being partisan. From my perspective, we are (off topic to the thread title) talking about physical modeling and MPE. Two of my favorite subjects. In this topic, the only thing I'm partisan towards is satisfying results.

[Bako]

You're done cause that video blew away your argument and you are unwilling to admit it that it is freakin impressive... and so you started in on the name calling.

Never bothered addressing this, because you simply don't get it, you're obsessed with "winning" your hyper partisan objective whatever it is, to the point you're not listening to what others are saying, and at that point it's just not worth the time to have a conversation anymore. So, that's why I said I'm done.

Here, because you're for some reason slow about this, this is the breakdown.

Hey it's great that AAS synths are MPE in Live.

Yeah, other physical modeling synths are better.

OK sometimes simple is good for MPE.

Well I challenge you to do make something I like as much as this!


I fail to see how this is an adult conversation?

userbase of Bitwig has grown dramatcally between v 4 and 5 . for developer , in this case Ableton of course audience is important but since Bitwig has similar ambitions as a daw maker it does metter to say to it's littel brother , you are good but i'm still better. it's not only about how many people using the product . it's the pride for software developer and this is the time for Ableton to restate their position in niche.