Sad state of Native Instruments

[2NDMOUSE]

So now that I finally upgraded to kontakt 7 I'm seeing much slower loading. Is it recommended to batch resave for faster loading like with previous versions?

Its a much cleaner, larger UI. However...........I decided to run it last night as I wanted to use "Abstrung". I added it to my track 3 times, and 3 times it sat there either bugging out, or freezing. I ended up closing the thing in exasperation and using A.A.S String studio instead, which is ALWAYS consistently reliable and sounds great. .

Nothing to do with my machine as it's new. Windows 11, i7 8 core 3.6ghz min 4.9ghz max, 96gb ram.

[Vocalpoint Studios]

Here (for those who don't understand the real benefit of high resolution screens) is an article that explains the best benefit:

https://medium.com/elementaryos/hidpi-i ... b9bb110b43

This article was written back in 2017.

No one is ever going to disagree that a better (HD) view of the world - is you know- better.

But for the NIs of this world (and all other vendors) - just because it's there - does not mean anyone is using it.

I frequent several studios in the area here for all sorts of VO work, sound design etc - and even with all the gear jammed into these places - I think I have seen just one guy using a 4K monitor and it was some overblown, overpriced Apple layout. 99% of any room here is still 1920x1080. It's universal, it's expected and it works.

I think the bottom line in all this has nothing to do with vendors like NI (and others) being resistant to address this - it's more about why? Why rewrite Kontakt from scratch so every vector point and font character perfectly scales up and down by dragging the corner of the UI - and then have to tell the hundreds of vendors who have supplied libraries over the last 3-7 years that they now need to rewrite all their stuff to "really" comply?

The needs of the many - outweigh the needs of the few. Or the one (© Mr. Spock 1982)

VP

[glokraw]

Sincere question; Does Access also work under WINE? Because that's the sticking throttle that kills everything from them to me. Doesn't matter what you can get from them if Access won't download, install or authorize them...

Hi, at the end of this topic, page ten atm,

https://linuxmusicians.com/viewtopic.php?t=26555

I listed steps that worked for me to install and use Native Access.
There are still variables of video cards, the kernel's drivers, desktop gui's, system libs, and the kernel itself, but the steps should help overcome the NI way of doing things, in case one has the magic combo of hardware. The steps install the 1.14 version of Native Access.

I have an i7 mobo, nvidia 9400 GT pcie video card, mAudio pci soundcard, a recent AVLinux distro with wine-staging 9.0, Linux Reaper 7.09, and the newest Yabridge. I installed a few things from Komplete today, so it's not one of those ancient posts from yesteryears green-terminal era

In this topic,

viewtopic.php?t=503359&start=450

people post screenshots and some details of things that work in wine, mostly in Reaper. It just passed 30K views today (the same 8 guys viewing lots and lots of times ?
Cheers

[BBFG#]

I did get the legacy Access to install, but it says that while it "sees" all my previous installations of NI and the 3rd party libraries for them, it does not recognize them and prompts me to reinstall everything. I'm not falling for that. Spectrasonics pulled the same maneuver with me years ago and wiped out my Atmosphere license.
These NI tricks have already killed three of their own plugins. Don't want to kill anymore until I can sell them.

[audiojunkie]

Here (for those who don't understand the real benefit of high resolution screens) is an article that explains the best benefit:

https://medium.com/elementaryos/hidpi-i ... b9bb110b43

This article was written back in 2017.

No one is ever going to disagree that a better (HD) view of the world - is you know- better.

But for the NIs of this world (and all other vendors) - just because it's there - does not mean anyone is using it.

I frequent several studios in the area here for all sorts of VO work, sound design etc - and even with all the gear jammed into these places - I think I have seen just one guy using a 4K monitor and it was some overblown, overpriced Apple layout. 99% of any room here is still 1920x1080. It's universal, it's expected and it works.

I think the bottom line in all this has nothing to do with vendors like NI (and others) being resistant to address this - it's more about why? Why rewrite Kontakt from scratch so every vector point and font character perfectly scales up and down by dragging the corner of the UI - and then have to tell the hundreds of vendors who have supplied libraries over the last 3-7 years that they now need to rewrite all their stuff to "really" comply?

The needs of the many - outweigh the needs of the few. Or the one (© Mr. Spock 1982)

VP

I don't disagree that there are a lot of people using the lower 1080p resolution, but more and more (if not most already) monitors are coming with the higher resolution screens. And, unless someone is using a big screen, like a 32", the user of said modern screen will be forced to scale to 200% (HiDPI) in order to see their desktops properly. When they do, they will notice (like I do), that the GUIs that don't scale up are unusable, because they are too small. So yes, while there are a lot of people still stuck on the old technology, it's only a matter of time before more and more people are going to complain about it--even you, someday (probably soon).

Have you considered the possibility that maybe the very reason all of these studios stay on these low resolution screens that you frequently see, is that they don't want to lose their investment of plugins that don't scale up? I suspect there are at least some in this situation.

At any rate, my original comment, pages back, was one of surprise that the adoption rate for HiDPI on Windows wasn't any further ahead when compared to Linux (which I use with my 4k monitor). It wasn't originally anything more than just surprise, but somehow it has continued to bring debate. Each person to his own, I say.

That said, I still believe it is incredible that high resolution support isn't just something that is designed by default into the plugin from the beginning--at the time the developer chooses the GUI framework for building the plugin. Some developers of new plugins are just not that forward thinking when they are choosing their GUI frameworks. These are the ones that are making big mistakes by not thinking of the future, and the ones I feel the least sympathy for when they have to remodel their plugins to support High Resolution later. Others have been using their framework of choice for years and hoping that the high resolution support will eventually come. I feel more sympathy for these developers. Others have developed their own framework years before and have no way to move forward without starting over fresh. I feel bad the most for these developers. There's lots of reasons why high resolution support isn't there. The point is, it is something that a proper developer should be having in mind from the beginning if possible, since most monitors are moving to high resolutions.

[mixyguy2]

This isn't simply about what size/resolution monitor one has. There are times when one wants to be able to resize a plugin (in or out) for any number of workflow reasons. For something as widespread as Kontakt to take forever to address it doesn't speak well of the company. Neither does the many negative responses to v7 and the many fixes/"upgrades" they had to make it to right after releasing it. I hated Kontakt from the first time I tried it, but ultimately relented (at a great cross-grade price) because so many plugins I wanted to use required it. I have no intention of "upgrading" to v7 or anything else though.

[LFO8]

I hated Kontakt from the first time I tried it, but ultimately relented (at a great cross-grade price) because so many *plugins I wanted to use required it.

*Sampled instruments..

[soulata]

I hated Kontakt from the first time I tried it, but ultimately relented (at a great cross-grade price) because so many *plugins I wanted to use required it.

*Sampled instruments..

Apparently they felt the need to do rhodes samples again...they'll probably throw out the Scarbee ones...

[soulata]

I had to literally dump Battery. Not to mention they discontinued 2 synths

Battery doesn't work on M1?

[glokraw]

That said, I still believe it is incredible that high resolution support isn't just something that is designed by default into the plugin from the beginning

When the Kontakt codebase emerged from the cranial genious bank,
there was no such thing as high resolution. I doubt on release day, any of those amazing coders for-saw my pawn-shop 23 inch monitor, let alone 4K. I also doubt they knew that their sample-based system would dominate the market two freaking DECADES later, 'warts and all'. The people that actually sign paychecks and enjoy the fruit of the ever-changing team's success, have seen 'the books', and know how to keep the doors open. While we in the peanut gallery generally speaking, do not. We just want better and better and better, and competitors starting from a blank slate have advantages when it comes to built-in hi-res support. They lack the huge 3rd party entourage of gifted sound lib creators, who need typical screen size support.

I do simple music, and use 4 separate desktop screens, one for daw, one for audacity, and two for misc standalones. Each a nudge of the scroll-wheel away. I really doubt having all those on one huge monitor would benefit my playtime -er, uh, I mean my workflow. Fatigue can become a factor, when having to continually move the skull holding one's eyes, to focus on one of many apps, and nearby onscreen distractions are not always helpful. Some power users may need/want apps side by on a huge screen for their work, glad that's an option, and thank the Lord for all the great music we have to choose from.
Cheers

[glokraw]

Ages ago, when Reaktor Prism was given away as NI's Christmas freebie, I used Reaktor in the (generous) 'demo mode', and soon bought the full Prism and Razor, on the merits, not worried about the time restrictions. When Komplete 12 came out, I began dabbling with Native Access in wine, and discovered I had an absurdly affordable upgrade path, and would be able to authorize the trove. I learned not to mess with a 'working system', a mantra still crucial years later. Also, linux provides an interesting time capsule of sorts, to use older but great products not currently developed or supported. Not being tasked with recreating a windows behemoth, has advantages. Needing just enough api to have audio, video, network and file management, is a more manageable task for the wine team!

[mi-os]

I can't log into NA since yesterday. What's going on? Any known issues?

Edit: reinstalling NA helped.

[Vocalpoint Studios]

Have you considered the possibility that maybe the very reason all of these studios stay on these low resolution screens that you frequently see, is that they don't want to lose their investment of plugins that don't scale up? I suspect there are at least some in this situation.

Makes complete sense to me. And why wouldn't it? If a studio has something that is working - they will not change it - no matter how "cool" the next thing might be. These are working rooms - not places where pros change things out - just "cause".

That said, I still believe it is incredible that high resolution support isn't just something that is designed by default into the plugin from the beginning--at the time the developer chooses the GUI framework for building the plugin. These are the ones that are making big mistakes by not thinking of the future, and the ones I feel the least sympathy for when they have to remodel their plugins to support High Resolution later.

Respectfully - I still believe this line of thinking is flawed - rooted in some odd space where the belief is that just because new tech arrives (4K, 8K etc) - that the industries this tech is aimed at - suddenly needs to (or will) change because of it.

Your comment on "not thinking for future" also makes a bold assumption that this "future" includes the tech you believe these vendors are missing out on (or not prepared for).

Case in point - last week was an exciting one for us users of Steinberg's Wavelab. Version 12 hit the streets and we are excited - it's a fantastic upgrade with tons of potential. WL is an industry standard mastering app used by thousands daily. But with all the time, talent and effort that went into this new version - the recommended screen resolution remains 1920x1080.

You would think that Steinberg - who most certainly have done their homework over 12 iterations and 25+years of Wavelab - for an app which pros worldwide stare at for hours/weeks/months on end - would have embraced your theory and proudly announced they were ditching standard HD in favor of 4K - but no. Not necessary and not recommended either.

My theory on this - is that regardless of what display hardware is (or becomes) available - the software industry simply does not care about 4K. Plugins developers certainly do not - as their most immediate concern (as always) is to sell to the lowest common denominator right now - to those that can use it.

They cannot (or will not) afford to sink more time, talent and $$$ to rewrite all their plugins for 4K - becuase they know that trying to recoup those costs someway/somehow by increasing prices could potentially kill what little good will they built up after years of not worrying about it.

And let's not forget the primary directive that all these vendors already know (but all 4K monitor owners refuse to accept) - ALL 4K monitors will do 1920x1080 just fine.

Why rewrite anything - when user A can simply their fancy display back to standard HD?

We can beat this dead horse to infinity but after over a decade+ of 4K availability - I still cannot find a single major DAW vendor who indicates that 4K is their "recommended" resolution.

And to tying this all back to NI/Kontakt - the only way NI could ever get this right - is by rewriting the entire Kontakt UI from scratch - which could take years. I cannot see them justifying that cost in any way, shape or form - just to satisfy 5%-10% of a user base who does not want to use standard HD.

I know this scenario burns all those 4K monitor owners - after all - they bought these things for a reason and need to justify that cost by insisting the software vendors "Get on it" - but if 4K was actually important OR destined to become a standard to this industry as a whole - it would have been long ago.

VP

[enCiphered]

Have you considered the possibility that maybe the very reason all of these studios stay on these low resolution screens that you frequently see, is that they don't want to lose their investment of plugins that don't scale up? I suspect there are at least some in this situation.

Makes complete sense to me. And why wouldn't it? If a studio has something that is working - they will not change it - no matter how "cool" the next thing might be. These are working rooms - not places where pros change things out - just "cause".

That said, I still believe it is incredible that high resolution support isn't just something that is designed by default into the plugin from the beginning--at the time the developer chooses the GUI framework for building the plugin. These are the ones that are making big mistakes by not thinking of the future, and the ones I feel the least sympathy for when they have to remodel their plugins to support High Resolution later.

Respectfully - I still believe this line of thinking is flawed - rooted in some odd space where the belief is that just because new tech arrives (4K, 8K etc) - that the industries this tech is aimed at - suddenly needs to (or will) change because of it.

Your comment on "not thinking for future" also makes a bold assumption that this "future" includes the tech you believe these vendors are missing out on (or not prepared for).

Case in point - last week was an exciting one for us users of Steinberg's Wavelab. Version 12 hit the streets and we are excited - it's a fantastic upgrade with tons of potential. WL is an industry standard mastering app used by thousands daily. But with all the time, talent and effort that went into this new version - the recommended screen resolution remains 1920x1080.

You would think that Steinberg - who most certainly have done their homework over 12 iterations and 25+years of Wavelab - for an app which pros worldwide stare at for hours/weeks/months on end - would have embraced your theory and proudly announced they were ditching standard HD in favor of 4K - but no. Not necessary and not recommended either.

My theory on this - is that regardless of what display hardware is (or becomes) available - the software industry simply does not care about 4K. Plugins developers certainly do not - as their most immediate concern (as always) is to sell to the lowest common denominator right now - to those that can use it.

They cannot (or will not) afford to sink more time, talent and $$$ to rewrite all their plugins for 4K - becuase they know that trying to recoup those costs someway/somehow by increasing prices could potentially kill what little good will they built up after years of not worrying about it.

And let's not forget the primary directive that all these vendors already know (but all 4K monitor owners refuse to accept) - ALL 4K monitors will do 1920x1080 just fine.

Why rewrite anything - when user A can simply their fancy display back to standard HD?

We can beat this dead horse to infinity but after over a decade+ of 4K availability - I still cannot find a single major DAW vendor who indicates that 4K is their "recommended" resolution.

And to tying this all back to NI/Kontakt - the only way NI could ever get this right - is by rewriting the entire Kontakt UI from scratch - which could take years. I cannot see them justifying that cost in any way, shape or form - just to satisfy 5%-10% of a user base who insist that 4K is it.

I know this scenario probably burns you - making you feel like you bought that 4K monitor for a reason and "need" to justify that cost by insisting the plugin vendors "Get on it" - but if 4K was actually important to the industry as a whole - everyone would be supported that resolution as standard long ago.

VP

What a strange post and view of things..
It's been a long time since I've read such nonsense, sorry.
I´m working with WL every day, for decades.
It has always been a pleasure to communicate with the developers of WaveLab. They always been open to change, and WL is what it is today only because of user feature requests. And adapting to higher resolutions was also always a topic. WL looks great on 4K screens, and each window can be freely moved and docked when working with multiple monitors.

[Vocalpoint Studios]

What a strange post and view of things..
It's been a long time since I've read such nonsense, sorry.
I´m working with WL every day, for decades. It has always been a pleasure to communicate with the developers of WaveLab. They always been open to change, and WL is what it is today only because of user feature requests. And adapting to higher resolutions was also always a topic. WL looks great on 4K screens, and each window can be freely moved and docked when working with multiple monitors.

Hey - you do you - I did not say that you "cannot" use WL (or any app for that matter) on a 4K screen - I am sure that it's fab.

It is simply very odd to me that for app built over the last year - with all this "supposed" 4K pressure and "not prepared for the future" and all the other nonsense coming from the 5% people who continue to whine about 4K - that Steinberg still does not recognize (or mention) 4K as a recommended resolution.

You would think that this app - the first major audio-centric release of 2024 - would at least make mention of that - but it does not.

VP