Synful Orchestra - wow!

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I have fun when I read posts headers like "I'm a nuclear engineer. I've discovered several sub-alpha particles in the last few years, and my bed is just next to the particle accelerator".

The missing "...consequently, you all noobies know-it-nothing listen to me as the truth is in my mouth" part, which is the centerpoint of the post reflects a severe self-esteem disease. Beware of it.

Back to the technical arena, I see a natural reaction against what might be 'the-new-big-thing' everywhere: even when its development has only given babysteps, it is immediately compared with 'the other, the one we already have' technology, which has years of development.

Of course, it's judged rudely. The description in the post header serves pretty well to express that "if I say so, it must be that way".

Old timers like me might recall when the first CD players appeared, with those poorly-developed, cheap DAC filters. The fever about those gizmos sounding 'digital' and 'distorted', and in no way comparable with a good vinyl or tape. When the CD technology improved, it quickly become the quality 'de-facto' standard (even when today there's still guys who prefer to listen concertos on vinyl :D).

The bad thing is that many technologies and products have disappeared or went bankrupt due this. It seems that the popular belief feedback is something impossible to handle from a commercial point of view.

The good thing is that musicians are smart. And sometimes they pick one of those technologies/products supposed to be a 'perfect emulation of', and figure a way to create a new sound out of them, which will be 20-years-later cliche. Like some drum machines, bass machines or synthesizers.

In any case, im(very)ho Synful is like two thousand lawyers chained two hundred meters below sea level: a great start :D

-René

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No problems installing on Windows 2000.

Took a look closer to it now.
I tried several different classical phrases in realtime and sequenced.

It's not true, that the articulation is always right and / or pleasing with Synful. (Of couse, because how could this work? With magic?)

In fact it's always the same boring "standard articulation" !

Somehow balanced: ok, but to make it more livin in the right way of expressional articulation, you have to tweak the notes heaviely in a very special (and unnatural way) by editing them acribically offline to find the right overlapping. But results are limited finally.

There is also no way to use more specialized realtime controllers to give the timbres the right articulation. Or am I missing something here?

You merely can edit the algorithms global, which isn't very useful for some reasons.

I think, kinda solistic articulation is far different than this one. So finally the "big feature" of this synthesizer is also very limited. It's a kinda common "preset articulation" calculated by a computer.

Sounds entirely more like a childs orchestra from a music scool training lesson.

Disappointing. Where are the big expression features like support of aftertouch and midi controllers? Merely fixed support of velocity, foot controller and pitch bending is applied. Cannot be routed or edited...

Standard MIDI files need a heavy tweakin to sound nearly as intended.

Transparent usage? Too transparent in my opinion.

For that money I really can expect more. More professionality. Cause it's version 2 already...

A sampler infact gives you more control on good multisamples.

.

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The point is not that the technology is bad. The point is, that this technology is already available and realized with very similar applications (speech synthesis, FFT resynthesizers, vocal modeling (singing) software...)

There is nothing revolutionary here.

The commercial claim leaded me to the assumption, that this could be a really nice new idea. For all kind of solistic instruments.

But the final result by listining to the results in the version 2! is disappointing to me.

Althought interesting to know. But too expensive for too weak results to participate.

Maybe this piece will be good for ppl, who see no possibility to get an acceptable solist.

But I have doubts, that those people will actually buy this instrument for the 470 bucks :hihi: .

It's not more than a kinda articulation preset synthesizer. Amount of entire control (to be a professional grade instrument) is not satisfying here.

.

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jackle&hyde wrote: Sounds entirely more like a childs orchestra from a music scool training lesson.
Well, my playing isn’t even on that level so that should give me some room to grow. :hihi:

Seriously, I’m surprised that you can’t see the potential in this technology. So it doesn’t immediately replace everything we have now – so what? This is a first attempt and it can only get better. It’s already impressive enough for me to want to buy into it – if I could afford it. :?

Maybe it will never completely replace sampling but why would it have to? As I said earlier, it’s another tool in the box - how could that be a bad thing?

/Yoss

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If this "technology" has the power as you say, so then it dosn't matter what my or your opinion is or what anybodys opinion is. :wink:

And it dosn't matter, what "big overdriven words" they find to publish it on their website.

But my experiences say me that I dislike all those great suggestive commercial noise, because a really good thing don't need anything of this. I cannot see anything revolutionary here.

Maybe it's because they actually have to satisfy the price anyhow this way... :hihi:

Well we will see then what happens.
Whether all sampler manufacturers will now licence their patented technology and all users giving away their orchestral sampling libraries or not ... :wink:

It is inproductive to discuss in the manner of "Oh my god! what will bee in the future! What can it be anywhen".

I live today and I am a practical men and I want to achieve results efficiently and when required and I want to trust the claims of a commercial product.

In this case I found it disappointing for that amount of money.

The Cello has absolutely no character in it's timbre. It sounds cheep. Also the Viola. Merely the Violin is acceptable anyhow but far from being perfect. The brass and the flutes are actually very simple to simulate with common sampling tech and don't need a 500 bucks machine in general.

There is not enougth sonic control for my taste to make it sounding the way I want.

.
Last edited by useruseruser on Wed Dec 29, 2004 3:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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jackle&hyde wrote:If this "technology" has the power as you say, so then it dosn't matter what my or your opinion is or what anybodys opinion is. :wink:

And it dosn't matter, what "big overdriven words" they find to publish it on their website.
I agree, I think this technology will thrive regardless of what you or I think about it. :wink:

As for "big overdriven words" I can't recall Synfyl claiming anything it can't back up.

/Yoss

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What is revolutionary here is the focus of modeling that area "between notes," which should be a continuum of evolving sound but with sampling technology that area gets chopped out. Only VSL, with its legato samples, has sampled that area for one limited application, which has all the pros singing its praises. Oh, of course, there has been all those tremolo, runs, trills, etc. samples too.

Does Synful have a great overall sound? - no, great natural ambience? - no, great expression in sustain areas? - a little, expression during note transitions? - the only one so far.

So what does one listen to in the playback? Once I hear everything in Synful that is happening between notes, then when I go back to just samples I find it missing and it drives me nuts. So I am suddenly willing to forgive the awful sound. And I will no longer be satisfied with just samples anymore.

By the way, at the NS forum Eric of Synful admitted that real samples are behind Synful (resynthesized) and these samples were created from ALBUMS of REAL performances! Clearly, creating specific samples just for Synful will yield much better results - I wonder how much better?

I also wonder if like René or Ben will come up with another way to address this note transition area. All the pros are just screaming for this (and most of us hobbyists). Come on René, I know you like challenges!

YBaCuO

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René wrote:The Beethoven mp3 is absolutely impressive. If that result can be really achieved with the synth, it's a bargain. No matter if it's realtime or not.

No library on earth can do those slurs with that freedom.

-René
As far as the Beethoven is concerned, I strongly suspect that the passage was lifted directly from cd and is not the instrument itself in use.

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j&h,

While I value your opinion and all, I'm surprised that you're one of the people who is undervaluing the potential. It reminds me of old people who say, "Bah, computers. Pen and paper work just fine for me."

Greg
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As far as the Beethoven is concerned, I strongly suspect that the passage was lifted directly from cd and is not the instrument itself in use.
The MIDI file for the Beethoven passage is included in the demo. If you open it in a MIDI sequencer which understand tempo and set Synful appropiately, you get the same result. No obscure arts.

-René

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I also wonder if like René or Ben will come up with another way to address this note transition area. All the pros are just screaming for this (and most of us hobbyists). Come on René, I know you like challenges!
BTW Thanks YbaCuo for the comment. I'll have to leave it for Ben though, I'm not that smart :D

Anyways, hopefully Eric keeps focused on it. I can't wait to free some sample libs storage. Nearly a terabyte as for today...

-René

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Gymnopedies wrote: As far as the Beethoven is concerned, I strongly suspect that the passage was lifted directly from cd and is not the instrument itself in use.
Wow, quotes like that should put a smile on Eric Lindemanns face - high praise indeed. :D

As René said, you can just load Synful and the included Midi file and you should get the same result.

/Yoss

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Just had a run-through with the demo. I can see some promise in this, but frankly right now the sounds just plain suck. There's no way anyone will pay $479 for this right now, or even $100. The current state of the software is one I would consider to be at the early stage of testing the general idea and seeing that it works. This is not fit for beta stage, much less final release. It's a great start, but should be finished before it is released.

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Draagen wrote::-o

These demos are impressive taken for granted its non-sampled modelling. Very, very impressed. The world of physical modelling certainly holds potential and its just waiting be unleashed. This is a step in the right direction and pretty amazing one too.
I'm not entirely sure from reading the blurb if this is really physical modelling - it seems to me more a hybrid of additive resynthesis and phrase synthesis - able to more accurately synthesise the complex nature of the sounds perhaps but without necessarily getting into the guts of the instruments themselves.

Not to say it's not a worthy attempt at the problem of creating natural instrumental sounds - I'm very interested myself and would like to know a bit more about the techniques used.

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This sounds good. The samples are not quite up to par with libraries like GPO, but it still sounds better since it's much more expressive. You actually get the idea that you hear human beings play.

Of course you will have to adapt your playing to get the most out of this, so if your playing sucks (like mine) .. tough luck. And I still have the urge to put the strings section through some distortion units, Boards Of Canada-style :hihi:

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