"probably noob" question about mastering level
- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 3336 posts since 3 Jul, 2022
Hello,
So clearly everywhere we can find the fact that we should master in true peak -1db and integrated LUFS -11db. There is a lot of theory about it and so on and so forth.
Yet when I am referencing my track with some "similar" genre, my track is always quieter... And when I publish on Spotify it is also the case.
So I already checked a Flac file of the latest track of the Chemical Brothers (these guys kind of know what they are doing lol) and the integrated LUFS is between -8 and -9db.
Thank yesterday I was looking at Anyma - Syren (the electro hit of 2023) and it is even worth and true peak is at a perfect 0db (at least when loading the Flac in RX10).
Somebody can explain that to me ? The FLAC I get are extracted from TIDAL.
So clearly everywhere we can find the fact that we should master in true peak -1db and integrated LUFS -11db. There is a lot of theory about it and so on and so forth.
Yet when I am referencing my track with some "similar" genre, my track is always quieter... And when I publish on Spotify it is also the case.
So I already checked a Flac file of the latest track of the Chemical Brothers (these guys kind of know what they are doing lol) and the integrated LUFS is between -8 and -9db.
Thank yesterday I was looking at Anyma - Syren (the electro hit of 2023) and it is even worth and true peak is at a perfect 0db (at least when loading the Flac in RX10).
Somebody can explain that to me ? The FLAC I get are extracted from TIDAL.
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- KVRAF
- 2650 posts since 19 Mar, 2008 from germany
My experience is: It doesn't really matter the numerical value of LUFS-I. Because
every song is different - and it's always about how a song sounds. And depending on
your own preference: Some songs need more loudness, some musicians want more
loudness. But another wants his song to sound more “open” and “hi-fi”-like.
Therefore: Have more self-confidence! Listen carefully - and create exactly the
loudness that sounds best to you.
every song is different - and it's always about how a song sounds. And depending on
your own preference: Some songs need more loudness, some musicians want more
loudness. But another wants his song to sound more “open” and “hi-fi”-like.
Therefore: Have more self-confidence! Listen carefully - and create exactly the
loudness that sounds best to you.
free mp3s + info: andy-enroe.de songs + weird stuff: enroe.de
- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 3336 posts since 3 Jul, 2022
Good advise! Thanks mate, .enroe wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2024 8:32 am My experience is: It doesn't really matter the numerical value of LUFS-I. Because
every song is different - and it's always about how a song sounds. And depending on
your own preference: Some songs need more loudness, some musicians want more
loudness. But another wants his song to sound more “open” and “hi-fi”-like.
Therefore: Have more self-confidence! Listen carefully - and create exactly the
loudness that sounds best to you.
- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 3336 posts since 3 Jul, 2022
What a value added remark .
Should I add a compressor ?
- KVRAF
- 5613 posts since 2 Sep, 2019
No, use a clipper.
Anyways, the reason I said that is because an integrated LUFS of around -8 dB is in serious ear fatigue territory. People should want to listen to your music because it sounds good, not because it's loud.
I have the note in my signature for a reason: Make the mix sound the best it can, and leave it up to the listener to set the volume level. You should be caring about dynamics, not decibels.
Get so quiet they have to lean way in to hear it, then punch them in the face.
Anyways, the reason I said that is because an integrated LUFS of around -8 dB is in serious ear fatigue territory. People should want to listen to your music because it sounds good, not because it's loud.
I have the note in my signature for a reason: Make the mix sound the best it can, and leave it up to the listener to set the volume level. You should be caring about dynamics, not decibels.
Get so quiet they have to lean way in to hear it, then punch them in the face.
THIS MUSIC HAS BEEN MIXED TO BE PLAYED LOUD SO TURN IT UP
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- KVRAF
- 7959 posts since 24 May, 2002 from Tutukaka, New Zealand
It's mostly just noise. When you check out a huge amount of modern music, not just electronic, is similarly loud. When I checked out a wide range of music, it surprised me how loud even pop and some sparser styles are. Adele is generally normalized by 5 or so dB on YT, so that's how much higher than -13 she is, and I'd expect that not to be the case, but it is. Plenty of other big names are very loud too. Oddly, U2 are generally not normalized in YT, yet I'd expect them to be fairly heavily squashed. Ultimately, even the big names with big label budgets and named producers/engineers and pro mastered make loud tracks.Jac459 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 11, 2024 5:21 am Hello,
So clearly everywhere we can find the fact that we should master in true peak -1db and integrated LUFS -11db. There is a lot of theory about it and so on and so forth.
Yet when I am referencing my track with some "similar" genre, my track is always quieter... And when I publish on Spotify it is also the case.
So I already checked a Flac file of the latest track of the Chemical Brothers (these guys kind of know what they are doing lol) and the integrated LUFS is between -8 and -9db.
Thank yesterday I was looking at Anyma - Syren (the electro hit of 2023) and it is even worth and true peak is at a perfect 0db (at least when loading the Flac in RX10).
Somebody can explain that to me ? The FLAC I get are extracted from TIDAL.
Most modern music is fairly unsubtle, and unless you're instrumental or classical, most punters don't give a fk about dynamic range. Many of the mouthpieces that shout about loudness seem to be pro producers etc who themselves make loud music from the acts they get paid to produce. I don't aim for any particular level nowadays. I recently finished a track that I consider better than many I've made, which is dense techno-ey kinda style and has good impact at -14 LUFS, whereas some of my tracks need squishing up into single figures before they sound close. I wish I knew how to do that every time, but it's different every track. I wouldn't pay too much attention to the "gospel" of dynamics, as it obvs doesn't apply to the real world, and especially not to electronic types. You know you've gone too far when it's becoming distorted is pretty well my only caveat. As to tiring the ears...meh. I don't listen to music long enough to do that. Probably most people don't either. Maybe I did when I was younger, but FFS - the occasions I had prolonged listening was at either gigs or clubs/raves, where bleeding ears was a desired endpoint. Dynamic range did not apply
- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 3336 posts since 3 Jul, 2022
I don't know. I am no expert, that's why I am asking in the forum.jamcat wrote: ↑Wed Feb 14, 2024 2:02 am No, use a clipper.
Anyways, the reason I said that is because an integrated LUFS of around -8 dB is in serious ear fatigue territory. People should want to listen to your music because it sounds good, not because it's loud.
I have the note in my signature for a reason: Make the mix sound the best it can, and leave it up to the listener to set the volume level. You should be caring about dynamics, not decibels.
Get so quiet they have to lean way in to hear it, then punch them in the face.
But from a logical standpoint, I have a tendency to agree with the previous post saying that it certainly highly depends on the genre.
Surely the need for LUFS is not the same for the latest EDM or a jazz trio. The requirement for dynamic neither.
My point is just to have a consistent perceived loudness when placed in a Spotify playlist.
- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 3336 posts since 3 Jul, 2022
Yes, I agree.kritikon wrote: ↑Wed Feb 14, 2024 2:44 amIt's mostly just noise. When you check out a huge amount of modern music, not just electronic, is similarly loud. When I checked out a wide range of music, it surprised me how loud even pop and some sparser styles are. Adele is generally normalized by 5 or so dB on YT, so that's how much higher than -13 she is, and I'd expect that not to be the case, but it is. Plenty of other big names are very loud too. Oddly, U2 are generally not normalized in YT, yet I'd expect them to be fairly heavily squashed. Ultimately, even the big names with big label budgets and named producers/engineers and pro mastered make loud tracks.Jac459 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 11, 2024 5:21 am Hello,
So clearly everywhere we can find the fact that we should master in true peak -1db and integrated LUFS -11db. There is a lot of theory about it and so on and so forth.
Yet when I am referencing my track with some "similar" genre, my track is always quieter... And when I publish on Spotify it is also the case.
So I already checked a Flac file of the latest track of the Chemical Brothers (these guys kind of know what they are doing lol) and the integrated LUFS is between -8 and -9db.
Thank yesterday I was looking at Anyma - Syren (the electro hit of 2023) and it is even worth and true peak is at a perfect 0db (at least when loading the Flac in RX10).
Somebody can explain that to me ? The FLAC I get are extracted from TIDAL.
Most modern music is fairly unsubtle, and unless you're instrumental or classical, most punters don't give a fk about dynamic range. Many of the mouthpieces that shout about loudness seem to be pro producers etc who themselves make loud music from the acts they get paid to produce. I don't aim for any particular level nowadays. I recently finished a track that I consider better than many I've made, which is dense techno-ey kinda style and has good impact at -14 LUFS, whereas some of my tracks need squishing up into single figures before they sound close. I wish I knew how to do that every time, but it's different every track. I wouldn't pay too much attention to the "gospel" of dynamics, as it obvs doesn't apply to the real world, and especially not to electronic types. You know you've gone too far when it's becoming distorted is pretty well my only caveat. As to tiring the ears...meh. I don't listen to music long enough to do that. Probably most people don't either. Maybe I did when I was younger, but FFS - the occasions I had prolonged listening was at either gigs or clubs/raves, where bleeding ears was a desired endpoint. Dynamic range did not apply
I also have some tracks that were easier to mix and master than others...
On my side I don't pretend to make an awesome master, I just try to make a decent master.
To do that, I am just trying to suppress every possible problem of the mix, have a correct frequency response for the genre, and have an LUFS which is consistent for the genre.
That's where I got confused because I was trying to reference with external track without ever matching their perceived loudness, and then I discovered they were at -9 or more so basically I was having no chance to compete at -11....
- KVRAF
- 5613 posts since 2 Sep, 2019
But Spotify applies LUFS normalization to all tracks as default, so it's all going to have the same perceived loudness coming out. Tracks that are above the -14 LUFS target get turned down, which means they're needlessly leaving dynamic range on the table.
You should master your tracks for each platform to maximize your DR and sound quality for their specific targets.
THIS MUSIC HAS BEEN MIXED TO BE PLAYED LOUD SO TURN IT UP
- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 3336 posts since 3 Jul, 2022
Clearly in my experience the Integrated lufs is not a guaranty that the perceived loudness will be the same with multiple track of the same iLufs... (Even if it clearly helps)jamcat wrote: ↑Wed Feb 14, 2024 6:01 amBut Spotify applies LUFS normalization to all tracks as default, so it's all going to have the same perceived loudness coming out. Tracks that are above the -14 LUFS target get turned down, which means they're needlessly leaving dynamic range on the table.
You should master your tracks for each platform to maximize your DR and sound quality for their specific targets.
My objective is just to blend with other tracks of the same genre in terms of perceived loudness.
- KVRAF
- 15365 posts since 8 Mar, 2005 from Utrecht, Holland
I think this is the reason Roger Waters starts his albums with the first ten seconds of his music buried in the dithering noise, so listeners turn it up.
We are the KVR collective. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.
My MusicCalc is served over https!!
My MusicCalc is served over https!!
- KVRAF
- 5613 posts since 2 Sep, 2019
Same for the opening track on Disintegration from The Cure. The text in my signature actually comes from the album liner notes. I think they were goading people!
In fact, I think you would rather like Plainsong, it's essentially the theme from Sesame Street, played really slow.
In fact, I think you would rather like Plainsong, it's essentially the theme from Sesame Street, played really slow.
THIS MUSIC HAS BEEN MIXED TO BE PLAYED LOUD SO TURN IT UP
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- KVRist
- 92 posts since 26 Jul, 2023 from France