Do Linux users tend to be somewhat paranoid?

[imrae]

To the people who insist that audio can't be done on Linux. Is it because there is software you absolutely need that will not run in Linux?

As a daily Linux user who boots into Windows for audio: I think right now is the best it has ever been on the software side. Native REAPER and Bitwig, increasing number of native plugins, and most of the other good plugins with reasonanble licensing systems work nicely with YaBridge. iLok/Waves is a problem but one can happily do without them for most things. (Maybe cinematic scoring types disagree?)

Where we have moved backwards is the hardware front. The best audio interfaces have proprietary drivers and mixer control applications that don't work on Linux. Where they do work, this could be lost in the next minor hardware revision so good luck buying the right one. The JACK/ALSA/Pulse stack remains a headache and the arrival of Pipewire has made my desktop setup less likely to play nicely with my class-compliant multichannel interface.

One can still get great performance with a carefully configured setup that uses JACK for everything, but sometimes it's nice to upgrade your OS and have YouTube still work.

[Tiles]

To the people who insist that audio can't be done on Linux. Is it because there is software you absolutely need that will not run in Linux?
Linux for me is not about free software, if it's good I need and runs on Linux I will buy. Have bought quite few WinVst's that do just that on my system. I don't even know the plugin is bridged once installed. Thanks to some kind developers have bought many that run on all three OS'es.

So I say Vst32, Vst64, Vst3, Vst3i, clap, clapi, Lv2, Lv2i, jsfx etc. Lol for kicks even tested an old Dx plugin, it ran
If it sounds good and I have a need for it, bring it on. No idea why most have problems with Linux.

Audio can be done at Linux. And at a smartphone. Even at an Atari ST, that's where it started. Or in worst case even at your frigerator. When Doom works ...

So that's not the question. The question is what is the best solution for you as a musician. To "get it somehow to work" and "to be proud that this and that vst / daw / interface now works" is not the job. The job is to make music.

At Windows and Mac are the manufacturers, there is the market, and there are the other users that can help you in case you are stuck. There are the musicians. There are the vst instruments, natively. There are the daws. They simply work. There is the performance. Jack is too slow compared to ASIO and the Mac solution. And Jack through a Motu interface is still slow, even when you can proudly tell that you got it to work. Linux has no ASIO. It all ends in Jack.

As a long time Linux user i can also tell you what my personal problems with Linux are. It is just around 1% of the user software of the Windows and Mac eco system available. See, that it is not a question of "a few things missing". Nearly everything is missing. With Games there is around a third available nowadays, thanks to Steam. But it is still massively lacking.

Then there are the around 600 Linux distributions, with dozens of different desktops and package managers. A bad, still bash centered usability, no matter what desktop and distribution. And it is usually everything but stable. I have yet to find a Distro that works flawless out of the box. And the next update can already make your software not longer work. I had this fun before.

I have a vanilla Debian here that still shows a popup at startup, despite the fact that i have clicked a dozen times now at this tiny little "don't show it again" button. And the problems with Nautilus and Nemo are legendary. Just try sudo nautilus, and watch the console errors. For non Linux users, that's some file explorer solutions at Linux. And i had to install the Cinnamon desktop. The default Gnome desktop was broken and didn't even start. To remind, fresh installed. Other distros are not this better. We were at Rocky at one point. We then wanted to update at least to newest version. But Red Hat did a great job here to kill all the distros that are dependant of the RHEL Packages.

Yeah, half of the time i am busy with fixing linux issues, and battling with dependenices and the crazy rights management instead of getting my job done. When i can get my job done at all. My hard- and software is missing there. I would miss my interface with ASIO, the NI Libs that i own, my favourite DAW, all my 2d and most of my 3d graphics software, even programming is lacking. The use case that i have for Linux is very very small. And does not include music.

Even Linus thorvald knows that Linux is no good at the desktop. And he knows the reasons. He simply nails it.



That said, when you are happy with linux and its limited eco system and the other limits, then all is fine. You have to work with it, nobody else. Still, the question remains, do you want to be enthusiastic or productive. And i personally always choose the solution that gets my job done in the best possible way

Kind regards
Tiles

[sprnva]

Suffice to say, all I was learning with most updates was that there was some new feature added I had to find out how to disable.

Like what? I hate Microsoft more than most but I don't think this is a valid criticism, unless I am misunderstanding something. The reality for me is that Windows is the only OS that supports all the applications I want to use, so I put up with it because it allows me to get my work done.

That said, I still find it a superior experience to either macOS or Linux, or I did before Windows 11, which is a typical two-steps-forward-one-step-back Windows upgrade, where they give you a few things you've been begging for for ages and take away something you rely on every day. But $10 got me my Start Menu back so it's hardly the end of the world.

Thinking about it, a lot of those updates were from Edge. I switched to it when they changed it to being based on Chromium. I really liked what they did with it at first. Then in the last year or so I was getting more and more occasions where there would be an update and I had a new sidebar or toolbar or whatever that popped up and I had to disable.

I was also running on 12-year old hardware at the time and Windows 10 is out of support next year. Looking ahead I didn't want to deal with Windows 11 and wasn't comfortable having to bypass the install checks that could break with an update and lock me out. Now that GPU prices are more sane, I've upgraded everything since then and installed a dualboot with debian and Win 10 but I rarely ever go into it.

I also used to stick with Windows because it ran everything. Certainly a lot more than macOS, which is why all the years I had a macOS install it was never going to be my daily driver. But linux has become that. There are some apps I miss, but not enough to run them via WINE. Overall it feels like a system that is constantly improving. And I can't say that about Windows or macOS.

[FrettedSynth]

https://news.itsfoss.com/focusrite-linux/ is a good start to bringing audio interfaces to Linux. TBH all my interfaces run flawless.
Never liked JACK but also have never wanted to browse the net while playing. ALSA is giving me better latency with the same computer/interface than on Windows. For software I lost two plugins on the install wusikstation and wusik8000, that I can live with. Pipewire yeah not for me, but I'm sure there are folks who need the net while playing? None of the plugins I purchase/use require internet connection.

So again I have no idea why you all have so many problems? I must just be lucky.

[martinjuenke]

This Linux is cool.
All these special technical things I have to master prevent me from making music actually. That is a relief, because I‘m completely unmusical. I‘m an IT nerd, that is enough for one life!

[FrettedSynth]

This Linux is cool.
All these special technical things I have to master prevent me from making music actually. That is a relief, because I‘m completely unmusical. I‘m an IT nerd, that is enough for one life!

Cool! For me it's the other way around. Musician since 1972 started using computers in the mid 80's for music.

[Tiles]

https://news.itsfoss.com/focusrite-linux/ is a good start to bringing audio interfaces to Linux. TBH all my interfaces run flawless.
Never liked JACK but also have never wanted to browse the net while playing. ALSA is giving me better latency with the same computer/interface than on Windows. For software I lost two plugins on the install wusikstation and wusik8000, that I can live with. Pipewire yeah not for me, but I'm sure there are folks who need the net while playing? None of the plugins I purchase/use require internet connection.

So again I have no idea why you all have so many problems? I must just be lucky.

Mh, as a side note, Jack operates on top of ALSA. You cannot run Jack without it.

Either way. Both are significant slower than ASIO. I would go crazy alone with recording my vocals through Jack. And i want to hear a sound when pressing my midi keyboard as immediately as possible. And not 20ms later. That's already noticeable off beat. And i have projects where i even at Windows scratch at the borders of what is manageable. Which would be a theoretical discussion anyways, my Daw and my VST instruments simply does not work at Linux.

I have no doubt that your Linux environment is good enough for your personal needs. But your personal needs are not necessarily the same needs of the other musicians out there. And the musicians already voted with their feet. And there is a reason that they voted how they voted. Starts with the mentioned latency already. Continues with the available software. And does not end here. All the points that i have already mentioned above.

You do the same mistake than so much of other enthusiastic Linux users. To interpolate that nobody has ever a need and the right to use something else, because you are so happy with what you have and know. But you don't even know how limited your world is when you just know Linux. And when you know Windows then it should be pretty clear for you with what heavy limitations you have to deal at Linux. May i mention again that you miss around 99% of the user software? This software is no self entertainment of the makers. There is a heavy demand for it. People even pay for it

Use whaterver fits your needs. When you are happy with Linux, then am i. I use both. Which allows me to really compare.

But I have to repeat, there is a reason why musicians and most desktop users usually use windows or mac. You are the exception. We others simply have a job to do. That's the idea that you miss. And this job is not to battle with Linux and to limit us down to a handful open source tools. But to make music. Idealism is nice, but does usually not fill the frigerator. Even when it does for you

[FrettedSynth]

Mh, as a side note, Jack operates on top of ALSA. You cannot run Jack without it.

That I understand! my view is why walk around the block to get to your neighbors house when you can just walk next door. JACK = around the block, ALSA = walk next door.

Either way. Both are significant slower than ASIO. I would go crazy alone with recording my vocals through Jack. And i want to hear a sound when pressing my midi keyboard as immediately as possible. And not 20ms later. That's already noticeable off beat. And i have projects where i even at Windows scratch at the borders of what is manageable. Which would be a theoretical discussion anyways, my Daw and my VST instruments simply does not work at Linux.

Not sure what interface you are using? you mention MOTU.
But for me it has been the other way around with lower latency on Linux than on Windows.
Keep my sample rate at 48khz buffer at 64 samples = about 8ms.
Like on Windows the reported latency is not true, all I have seen use a double buffer.
Same computer, interface and project on Windows/ASIO the lowest I can go is 48/128 without hiccups.

I have no doubt that your Linux environment is good enough for your personal needs. But your personal needs are not necessarily the same needs of the other musicians out there. And the musicians already voted with their feet. And there is a reason that they voted how they voted. Starts with the mentioned latency already. Continues with the available software. And does not end here. All the points that i have already mentioned above.

And yet again this is where I say "I don't understand" I am by far not the smartest most computer savy dude. And yet most all my Windows software runs great, again just lucky I guess.

You do the same mistake than so much of other enthusiastic Linux users. To interpolate that nobody has ever a need and the right to use something else, because you are so happy with what you have and know. But you don't even know how limited your world is when you just know Linux. And when you know Windows then it should be pretty clear for you with what heavy limitations you have to deal at Linux. May i mention again that you miss around 99% of the user software? This software is no self entertainment of the makers. There is a heavy demand for it. People even pay for it

And yet to me it sounds the other way around, those who say its impossible to use Linux because they could not make it work.

Use whaterver fits your needs. When you are happy with Linux, then am i. I use both. Which allows me to really compare.

But I have to repeat, there is a reason why musicians and most desktop users usually use windows or mac. You are the exception. We others simply have a job to do. That's the idea that you miss. And this job is not to battle with Linux and to limit us down to a handful open source tools. But to make music. Idealism is nice, but does usually not fill the frigerator. Even when it does for you

As I said in an early post "use what works best for you"

[Tiles]

But for me it has been the other way around with lower latency on Linux than on Windows.
Keep my sample rate at 48khz buffer at 64 samples = about 8ms.

Yeah, i heard about this miracle values too. Have i mentioned that i use both, Linux and Windows, and that i can really compare?
Don't even try to make jokes with an old man. I am tech savy

And yet again this is where I say "I don't understand" I am by far not the smartest most computer savy dude. And yet most all my Windows software runs great, again just lucky I guess.

This is more than luck. Just try Native Access. It's one of the most used sampler solutions out there

All your Windows software is obviously much smaller than all Windows software. Have a look at WINE. It gives you a good idea what you miss at Linux. And even here, just a fraction works. Everything below Gold is usually unuseable. And even Gold is flawed, since there is Platinum. So it must have a flaw when it is not Platinum.

And yet to me it sounds the other way around, those who say its impossible to use Linux because they could not make it work.

I did never say it is impossible. I just say it is the worst solution that you can use. Like using a stone to hammer a nail into a wall. It most obviously works. But i may bet you are better suited to use a hammer for it.

I told you already that my needed software simply does not run at Linux. And that was it already with your master plan to convince me how great Linux is for music. Even without all my other background informations

As I said in an early post "use what works best for you"

Same here

But yet you ignore the fact that 99.99% of all musicians uses Windows or Mac. Just look at this board, and how much Linux users you find here, compared to Windows and Mac users. All i try here is to explain you the why. Since you struggle to understand.

[FrettedSynth]

@Tiles - from one old man to another not a joke about the latency. I have no doubt that you ARE computer savy and all, just different results on my end.
And no I will not use software centers, C/R or any of the other copy protection that needs to phone home. Don't begrudge anyone making a living so I pay for the software I use, this is a stance I took long ago. Hell had a computer in my music room forever, none have been connected to the internet.
Missing 99% of good software is a huge stretch, might be true for you but my results are different.

Not trying to convince anyone about anything, just stated my results which are very different from yours.

Peace

[mevla]

That's because the M-Audio devs put those out there, just like someone inside Apple (or eMagic depending on when it was done), let out the Unitor drivers, so those are now included in the kernel. My MOTU 828MK2 worked in Linux, because someone made drivers for it. They didn't magically just work when plugged in, if someone hadn't contributed those drivers, all of those devices would be just as dead in the water as they are on Windows/MacOS without the drivers.

I always try to be simple in comments and replies, to keep it short, but if there's a need to dig further, then OK.

I haven't written Linux device drivers per se, but took a good look at how it's done - different from regular higher systems programming in C - and wrote some test code to check out the learning. I did not get any need to write drivers for work. The 'lowest' I went was to build Linux systems from scratch (the LFS I mentioned in a previous reply) that are in function in high-availability dedicated hardware used by millions daily. This said, the device driver tool chain and procedure is interesting and I liked taking a cursory look at it some time ago.

It actually on an expanded LFS (BLFS) system that I compiled and ran a very first sequencer software, Muse, many moons ago. I built Linux systems from scratch quite a lot for embedded devices.

This to say that the 'magic' aspect of it is no 'magic' for me.

[mevla]

For years I now run the following Windows plugins on Linux (Mint, Kubuntu, Xubuntu) and Bitwig Linux (from 1.x to 5.x), at first with linvst, then with yabridge and its recommended Wine version. The machine is an old Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-3570 CPU @ 3.40GHz with 16 GB RAM, no SSD. The audio interface is a M-Audio 1010LT PCI card. Most are using the default Bitwig Linux approach to run VST. jackd is the audio handling.

- all Melda (~117 VSTs)
- all Voxengo
- all Tone2 synths (since their last update for various optimizations)
- Rob Papen synths (Blue3, Predator2, Blade2, Go2)
- all SugarBytes (although the small GUI size of many prevents serious exploration and use)
- IK Multimedia (ModoBass 2, SampleTank 3 and 4, some FX, Amplitube 4)
- KV331 Synthmaster 1 and 2
- Psychicmodulation (Phonec, Pulse Code, Undertow, VectoMelt)
- Sonic Charge (Microtonic, SynthPlant 2, Echobode)

I must point out that I'm not depending on audio production to earn a living. This is a hobby. If you happen to rely on audio production for the main cash income, your stance would be different and you'd be 'playing' it safe anyways.

This said, there can be system crashes. Not on a regular basis, but it can happen. I never lost any project from such crashes though, perhaps due to Bitwig's handling of VSTs, and my subconscious reflex of hitting Save very often, an habit from writing software. As well as ... making backups.

I'd say for anyone willing to try it out :

- run the demos extensively first before buying

- do not assume that states are stable. The next Windows VST update might not work (as in Go2X so far, and as in JUCE framework update for Apple M1 which rendered GUI unresponsive for BendoBox and subsequent updates from Psychicmodulation).

- use a lightweight Linux distro. Hence my going from Mint to Kubuntu and to Xubuntu today. Forget about KDE and Gnome for this kind of use if you want to optimize the use of CPU cycles and RAM. Dual boot is easy, you can have an audio production system and a regular system with shared drives.

Regarding the second point, be content with what you have. I for one have more than enough to explore for the rest of my life, with all the synths and audio FXs. I actually have all that's needed to create and mix and master, all that's left is my own will to do it. I learn new things in Bitwig and synths by the week without spending a single cent.

I forgot to mention that I also record acoustic guitar along with the synths, which means that latency is no issue. The guitar pickup goes through rackmounts PRO MPA II and PRO VLA II tube preamp and tube compressor. I did some tests many moons ago using a jackd tool and a cable, and I have experienced when latency becomes annoying in recording guitar using headphones, tot he point of not being able to play. With this in mind, latency today is not a problem at all in this context.

[mevla]

One can still get great performance with a carefully configured setup that uses JACK for everything, but sometimes it's nice to upgrade your OS and have YouTube still work.

Not sure what you meant there. Using the pulse audio jack sink utility all regular audio works fine when the system is configured for using jackd for music creation purposes.

[rafa1981]

As a Linux user (and dev), the moment open GL works on QEMU Windows guests I just will run Windows from a Virtual machine with near Native performance. No more plugin reinstalls.

An USB Interface can be easily passed through to the VM and use the Windows driver.

For now I dual boot. Too lazy to deal with tinkering on my free time.

[imrae]

One can still get great performance with a carefully configured setup that uses JACK for everything, but sometimes it's nice to upgrade your OS and have YouTube still work.

Not sure what you meant there. Using the pulse audio jack sink utility all regular audio works fine when the system is configured for using jackd for music creation purposes.

Yeah, actually come to think of it the OS upgrade breaking Youtube happened without any JACK involvement. (Fedora stopped shipping the relevant codecs and somewhere in my configuration the workaround to install from elsewhere was broken.)

I recall there were other headaches when I had the "everything runs through JACK" setup; Pulse could be a bit flaky and it got a bit ridiculous dragging cables around in order to mix audio from multiple applications. Maybe it's better now, but I moved to a different distro and have no idea how to set it up here.

I've been using Linux for maybe 15 years now and am exhausted by previous attempts to make good use of the multiple interacting audio systems (which usually means working against what the base distribution wants to do).

I think on a dedicated machine things are ok; I'd be very happy (indeed would recommend) using Linux to make a synthesizer or recording booth. But for a home PC that also does music production, you just don't get the low-hassle experience of MacOS. Windows is somewhere in the middle, WASAPI vs ASIO vs whatever else can also be pretty aggrevating.