Do Linux users tend to be somewhat paranoid?

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Tiles wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2024 1:20 am
That said, when you are happy with linux and its limited eco system and the other limits, then all is fine. You have to work with it, nobody else.
What would be a limited eco system in practical means today (eg. and not in 2014 and before) ?

The company you work for imposes limitations ?
Tiles wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2024 1:20 am Still, the question remains, do you want to be enthusiastic or productive. And i personally always choose the solution that gets my job done in the best possible way :)
What is the meaning of 'best' ?

When I create music I start the computer, log in, start Bitwig, then pick up a synth and from there it goes, all in Linux. The limitation is an inspirational/creative one.

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Actually, Apple and Windows are the limited platforms now. Restricted to only working on specific machines, whereas Linux will work on those machines and others those two don't approve of. Also, choosing to not run certain applications rather than being forced to have them installed whether you like it or not it's not limiting, it's freeing.
The new batch of up and coming Linux users are not paranoid, they're rebellious as they give the other two the finger and push their way out of their corner they try to keep every in.
Last edited by BBFG# on Fri Feb 23, 2024 10:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Tiles wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2024 1:20 am

Even Linus thorvald knows that Linux is no good at the desktop. And he knows the reasons. He simply nails it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pzl1B7nB9Kc

That video is 10 years old, if thats the level of your knowledge no wonder you dont know what you are talking about.
Win 10 with Ryzen 5950x, Bitwig 5, too many plugins, Novation Circuit Mono Station and now a lovely Waldorf Blofeld.

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Kypresso wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2024 10:28 am
Tiles wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2024 1:20 am

Even Linus thorvald knows that Linux is no good at the desktop. And he knows the reasons. He simply nails it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pzl1B7nB9Kc

That video is 10 years old, if thats the level of your knowledge no wonder you dont know what you are talking about.
It is two years old, and unfortunately still absolutely valid in every single point. If even then it has become worse. I cannot count how often i have for example cursed over the glibc issue in the last years.

But thanks that you show the typical toxic Linux behaviour here. Makes me immediately stop discussing with you.

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Kypresso wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2024 10:28 am
Tiles wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2024 1:20 am Even Linus thorvald knows that Linux is no good at the desktop. And he knows the reasons. He simply nails it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pzl1B7nB9Kc
That video is 10 years old, if thats the level of your knowledge no wonder you dont know what you are talking about.
And it's also tech talk and tech details. I participated in such discussions in the industry and it's fun - at least it used to be (1) - and at the end of the day what works as a reasonable solution for customers is what's adopted.

(1) The Linux 'community' has changed quite a lot within some 20 years. Now there are 'community' entities like Mastercard, Walmart and others in the same vein (not mentioning IBM who went from tech development to partnerships will large corporations). The people within the community have also changed. Gone are the days when tech passion, curiosity and questioning used to be valued. 2 years ago I got kick off a Arch Linux IRC channel for asking with some insistence (just a bit) how to disable systemd so I could run a favorite logging system of mine since ages, rsyslog :)

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Tiles wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2024 10:36 am
Kypresso wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2024 10:28 am
Tiles wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2024 1:20 am

Even Linus thorvald knows that Linux is no good at the desktop. And he knows the reasons. He simply nails it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pzl1B7nB9Kc

That video is 10 years old, if thats the level of your knowledge no wonder you dont know what you are talking about.
It is two years old, and unfortunately still absolutely valid in every single point. If even then it has become worse. I cannot count how often i have for example cursed over the glibc issue in the last years.

But thanks that you show the typical toxic Linux behaviour here. Makes me immediately stop discussing with you.
The clip is from DebConf14, which was held in Portland, Oregon, USA, in August 2014, it shows that under the clip on youtube.

It's not the first time i've seen this old clip dragged out and used to support someones position before.
Win 10 with Ryzen 5950x, Bitwig 5, too many plugins, Novation Circuit Mono Station and now a lovely Waldorf Blofeld.

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Tiles wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2024 10:36 am It is two years old, and unfortunately still absolutely valid in every single point. If even then it has become worse. I cannot count how often i have for example cursed over the glibc issue in the last years.
No. It's 10 years old. Easy to confirm. Look at another video of the same talk that was posted online 10 years ago.

And related to 'cursing over glibc' :

"DLL Hell"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DLL_Hell

Partech, 28 March 2022 : "What is DLL Hell Problem and how to solve it?"

https://www.partech.nl/en/publications/ ... o-solve-it

Baeldung, 16 June 2023 : "DLL Hell Problem"

https://www.baeldung.com/cs/dll-hell-problem

Let the curse be with you ?
Tiles wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2024 10:36 am But thanks that you show the typical toxic Linux behaviour here. Makes me immediately stop discussing with you.
Hmmmm.

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mevla wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2024 9:23 am
Tiles wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2024 1:20 am
That said, when you are happy with linux and its limited eco system and the other limits, then all is fine. You have to work with it, nobody else.
What would be a limited eco system in practical means today (eg. and not in 2014 and before) ?

The company you work for imposes limitations ?
Tiles wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2024 1:20 am Still, the question remains, do you want to be enthusiastic or productive. And i personally always choose the solution that gets my job done in the best possible way :)
What is the meaning of 'best' ?

When I create music I start the computer, log in, start Bitwig, then pick up a synth and from there it goes, all in Linux. The limitation is an inspirational/creative one.
Well, start Kontakt. Here is where the limitation already starts. Kontakt is the most used sampler. And it is just one example. To continue, there is rarely a guitar vst or amp solution natively available at Linux. Last time i had a look popular tools like Ozone didn't work at Linux neither, and so on. I repeat, i could not work at Linux since my software is missing.

I for myself work with the software. The OS does not make sound, that's the job of the vst. The OS does not record music, that's the job of the DAW. So i have a look what software is available. And then i have a second look at which OS this software works. I don't look that the car fits to the wheels so to speak, but have a look which wheels are then needed at the car that i want. The OS underneath is just the wheels. Not the vehicle.

The meaning of best is that i get the most out of my setup. Performancewise, Featurewise, Moneywise. And that's where Linux is always the weakest solution. Especially moneywise as odd as it sounds. Yes, Linux is free. But unbelievable expensive. You pay it with an enourmous time effort that you spend for things that you can better spend at making music. You pay with limitations that you do not have at Windows or Mac. You can just use a small fraction of what is available. You pay with a small community in a bubble. With all its negative effects. Where usually using Linux is much more important than making music, or graphics, or games, or ...

And what do you mean with company i work for? All i did here is to try to explain why the current situation, that musicians simply uses Windows and Mac instead of Linux, is how it is. The facts.

What i am not interested in is a Linux versus Windows discussion. First, this completely leaves out Mac, which is also a valid and often used solution. Especially at stage. And second since it is not a either or for me. But an and. I use both, Linux and Windows. But both for where they are good at.

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No. It's 10 years old.
Video says it is two years old, but okay. Let it be 20 years old, as told, it is still very valid in every single point. Nothing has changed to good in any way.

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Wikipedia wrote:Linux has completely dominated the supercomputer field since 2017, with all of the top 500 most powerful supercomputers in the world running a Linux distribution. Linux is also most used for web servers, and the most common Linux distribution is Ubuntu, followed by Debian.
It also states that the most used operating system is Android.
I think this whole thread was started from Apple and Windows paranoia of realizing more and more people are getting sick and tired of their "super-parenting". And it's a regular thing now to place a negative on others for what they/themselves are doing.

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Tiles wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2024 5:24 am
FrettedSynth wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2024 4:24 am https://news.itsfoss.com/focusrite-linux/ is a good start to bringing audio interfaces to Linux. TBH all my interfaces run flawless.
Never liked JACK but also have never wanted to browse the net while playing. ALSA is giving me better latency with the same computer/interface than on Windows. For software I lost two plugins on the install wusikstation and wusik8000, that I can live with. Pipewire yeah not for me, but I'm sure there are folks who need the net while playing? None of the plugins I purchase/use require internet connection.

So again I have no idea why you all have so many problems? I must just be lucky.
Mh, as a side note, Jack operates on top of ALSA. You cannot run Jack without it.

Either way. Both are significant slower than ASIO. I would go crazy alone with recording my vocals through Jack. And i want to hear a sound when pressing my midi keyboard as immediately as possible. And not 20ms later. That's already noticeable off beat. And i have projects where i even at Windows scratch at the borders of what is manageable. Which would be a theoretical discussion anyways, my Daw and my VST instruments simply does not work at Linux.

I have no doubt that your Linux environment is good enough for your personal needs. But your personal needs are not necessarily the same needs of the other musicians out there. And the musicians already voted with their feet. And there is a reason that they voted how they voted. Starts with the mentioned latency already. Continues with the available software. And does not end here. All the points that i have already mentioned above.

You do the same mistake than so much of other enthusiastic Linux users. To interpolate that nobody has ever a need and the right to use something else, because you are so happy with what you have and know. But you don't even know how limited your world is when you just know Linux. And when you know Windows then it should be pretty clear for you with what heavy limitations you have to deal at Linux. May i mention again that you miss around 99% of the user software? This software is no self entertainment of the makers. There is a heavy demand for it. People even pay for it ;)

Use whaterver fits your needs. When you are happy with Linux, then am i. I use both. Which allows me to really compare.

But I have to repeat, there is a reason why musicians and most desktop users usually use windows or mac. You are the exception. We others simply have a job to do. That's the idea that you miss. And this job is not to battle with Linux and to limit us down to a handful open source tools. But to make music. Idealism is nice, but does usually not fill the frigerator. Even when it does for you :)
You keep mentioning how JACK is slower than ASIO. Your information is out of date. You've actually mentioned several things that are out of date. People are regularly getting a latency of 5ms, ROUND TRIP! And just like with any other operating system, a lot of that is largely hardware dependent. Personally, I'm getting about 8ms round trip. I've currently got two new sound cards coming that are likely able to drop my personal latency to around the 5ms level. Those 20ms latencies you've mentioned are coming from people who don't know linux well, and don't know how to tune their system for low latencies and low xruns. You also mentioned that old video from Linus where he complains about Linux on the desktop--that's outdated as well. As I've mentioned, things have gotten so much better in the last few years. The problem that Linux mentioned is largely solved through several different technologies. These days, an audio developer for linux can develop his plugins for any distro he wants, and any other distro can easily use those plugins. Your experiences and info are no longer relevant, I'm happy to say.
C/R, dongles & other intrusive copy protection equals less-control & more-hassle for consumers. Company gone-can’t authorize. Limit to # of auths. Instability-ie PACE. Forced internet auths. THE HONEST ARE HASSLED, NOT THE PIRATES.

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mevla wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2024 10:51 am
Tiles wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2024 10:36 am It is two years old, and unfortunately still absolutely valid in every single point. If even then it has become worse. I cannot count how often i have for example cursed over the glibc issue in the last years.
No. It's 10 years old. Easy to confirm. Look at another video of the same talk that was posted online 10 years ago.

And related to 'cursing over glibc' :

"DLL Hell"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DLL_Hell

Partech, 28 March 2022 : "What is DLL Hell Problem and how to solve it?"

https://www.partech.nl/en/publications/ ... o-solve-it

Baeldung, 16 June 2023 : "DLL Hell Problem"

https://www.baeldung.com/cs/dll-hell-problem

Let the curse be with you ?
Tiles wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2024 10:36 am But thanks that you show the typical toxic Linux behaviour here. Makes me immediately stop discussing with you.
Hmmmm.
This is exactly the kind of discussion that i do not want to lead. And you put strawmen here. The so called dll hell has nothing to do and is not related in any way to the dependency hell. If even then it is the solution to the dilemma under Linux. You can run 20 year old software at Windows. Because of the DLL's. At Linux the software usually quits with new dependencies. Happened to me with Ubuntu with a point upgrade with python dependencies with my very own software that i develop. And now tell your users why your software has quit working two weeks after release ...

And now let's talk again about a so called DLL hell.

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No, it's not the Linux;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzPtr_n-m8A


Do carry on.

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Seems many tried Linux in the past and believe that it is still the same? Many believe there is not a good stream of new software it will run?

Installed Zebralette3 beta yesterday (Linux native). Runs great, really need to post a Thank You to uhe. What a one osc synth, looking very much forward to Z3.

BTW Silly question? How did this thread end up in instruments?

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... Your information is out of date. ...
Kthxbye.

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