Do Linux users tend to be somewhat paranoid?

[Tiles]

In which universe? Every single issue still exists, maybe even worse. That might be the reason why i didn't even notice the age. It is timeless. I just had the fun with GlibC before a few weeks again.

What was it, if you don't mind giving some details ?

The details are all mentioned in the video. Please watch it. The points are still all valid. Not a single one has changed. It is as actual as if he would have made the video yesterday. Which is even more scary when you realize that the video is eight years old, and not two, as i initially thought. Still a surprise to me. But it shows that it is indeed a conceptual problem that exists since years, and will not magically vanish. Let alone being already all fixed nowadays, like claimed by somebody else here.

You simply have no consistent GlibC version across the distributions. You do not have any consistent way to deliver Software to Linux at all. Linux at the desktop is highly inconsistent by design.

And this inconsistency is part of an unchangeable concept, the strength and at the same time the weakness of Open Source. That everybody can change everything at any point. Since the code is open source. So everybody pulls at the rope, but not necessarily into the same direction. That's where the over 600 distributions, the dozens of package manager, the different desktops etc. comes from. The current standard sucks, the original maintainer is not willing to change, so let's do our own standard ...

Not even versions of the same distribution are necessarily compatible with each other. You can deliver to Debian, or Arch, or Rocky or ... in version x y z . But not generally to Linux. Not even with Snap, Appimage or Flatpak. Because there is not THE Linux. But over 600 distributions who all thinks they are the standard. You have dozens of incompatible package managers. And so on.

And this means that it is for me as a developer quite a pain to develop and to deliver for Linux. It's always the balance to find for example the distribution with the lowest GlibC version that allows me to build a software that runs at as much distributions as possible. And the highest GlibC version that allows me to run my software at the hightest possible technical level. Replace GlibC with any other package that may change with a distro update, and you have a winner. Goddamn Ubuntu amateurs. One does not change a Python dependency with a point upgrade. And you have to deliver more than one package when you want to have a significant reach. Usually a deb or any other package format, a tar, and a appimage / snap / flatpak

Sorry for the long forewords, i had to explain the general situation before i can go into your requested detail.

The software that we develop was not starting at Ubuntu 22 anymore in our vm. We could compile it, but not longer test if the result works. This is nothing unusual, and can happen at any point. And then you need to find a solution. Sometimes you can simply upgrade to the next version. But sometimes not. When the GlibC version is too high for example, and the software compiled at this distro would not start at another distro anymore.

So we migrated from Ubuntu 22 (too low OpenGL. Dependency hell anybody?) to Ubuntu 23 (too high GlibC, wouldn't work at Debian 12 anymore for example) to Rocky 8 (too low GlibC to build Appimage) to Rocky 9 (Useless, killed by Redhat, which pulled the dependency plug. Was a funny installation anyways, one important ok button to continue was offscreen) to Debian 11 (too low GlibC for Appimage, and too low OpenGL) to Debian12 ( Finally. Did i mention the drama with the Gnome desktop? Is Cinnamon now) . Always setting up everyting from scratch to get it to work. Always testing and checking for the caveats.

It finally worked. Just to quit after two more weeks with the same reason that made us leave Ubuntu 22. Compiled software does not start anymore. Maybe a Mesa driver update will fix this in the future. But for now, three weeks of work for the birds. At least the GlibC version fits now better. Yay.

And this was just the latest drama which is even not finally resolved. I had so many of these moments before.

At Windows i compile a exe. And the result simply works. Hassle free. Everywhere. For minimum the next ten years. And here are also the users ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

But it does not stop here. Next problem is already the support chapter ... could you please explain me how to use the bash ... how do i install a deb? ... why don't you deliver for my favourite unknown Distro, we have three users that would be happy ... I heavily modified my Linux, and your software is now not starting anymore ... I downloaded your deb, and it does not work at my Rocky, your software sucks ... I use Ubuntu 12, why is your software not working here? ...

Ah the fun

As told, that's where the lack of software at Linux comes from. It's always a drama involved at one point. And it is much more work and support necessary. And not every software developer is willing to play this game.

--------------------------

The rest of your comments is again ad hominem and an attempt to pick me apart. And I think you know it pretty well. And that's where i am out then. I will not discuss with toxic people.

When you think that personal attacks and attempts to discredit me is the correct way to discuss then this happens without me. This counts also for the other toxic moron here who thinks he can call me a troll and with other names and spreads the usual propaganda lies and tries to throw me to death with his strawmen to make me quiet. I am quiet, but for different reason. A fine example of our Linux community he is. Yes, our, i am a Linux user too. Like it or not. I just don't wear pink glasses all the time. And you cannot tell me nonsense. I know a few things.

It does simply not help to kill the messenger. All i did was to explain the reason why so few musicians uses Linux. Since this question was risen. From an angle of somebody who uses both, Linux and Windows, has some background knowledge too, and is not trapped in a bubble and ideology.

Which leads me to the initial question of this thread. Yes, quite a few Linux users are somehow paranoid when it comes to their golden Linux calf. Unfortunately :/

This discussion leads to nowhere. Let's make some music

[FrettedSynth]

Damn this thread is still going? You folks get pretty upset about this stuff don't you?

Good morning Tiles, and yet with all that you mention I have been running Linux for the past year and a half. The full install is wrapped up in a pretty bow. Has been tested on many computers from 2nd gen -11th gen intels, and a couple celerons and will never update. Took the stance of don't update unless unavoidable long ago even on Windows and Apple.

You all can keep chasing the next tool, the only new plugin I look forward to is Zebra3. At 60 I just want to play music not computer whiz.

Peace

Now everyone go breath some fresh air, it's good for ya

[mevla]

The details are all mentioned in the video. Please watch it. The points are still all valid. Not a single one has changed. It is as actual as if he would have made the video yesterday.

This is simply not true. And you are pushing it blindly. That was 10 years ago. Things have changed. flatpack and appimage are there for people using high-level applications. And Bitwig installs itself just nicely on a popular Linux OS using a deb package. And I did watch the full excerpt with Linus yesterday and I commented about it.

Which is even more scary when you realize that the video is eight years old, and not two, as i initially thought. Still a surprise to me.

10. 10 years ago. Debconf14 August 23–31 2014. So many people told you already. Darn.

As told, that's where the lack of software at Linux comes from. It's always a drama involved at one point. And it is much more work and support necessary. And not every software developer is willing to play this game.

And so I browsed until the end of your reply to see this :

The rest of your comments is again ad hominem and an attempt to pick me apart. And I think you know it pretty well. And that's where i am out then. I will not discuss with toxic people.

You seem to live in a bubble. Do you expect anyone you are later on insulting to take the time to read all the details about your glibc issue ?

When you think that personal attacks and attempts to discredit me is the correct way to discuss then this happens without me. This counts also for the other toxic moron here who thinks he can call me a troll and with other names and spreads the usual propaganda lies and tries to throw me to death with his strawmen to make me quiet.

I've seen many people working with Linux that are doing stupid things. And taking a lot of time and detours and what have you to get an implementation done when otherwise it would have been a simple task. And the worst is that by doing it in convoluted ways they are not adding stability to a system. Quite the contrary. And then the unsuspecting company's manager finds itself with a unstable project that was delivered to a customer (or worse, customers), with ever lasting maintenance problems as new customers and new projects are knocking at the door.

This discussion leads to nowhere. Let's make some music

You are certainly making your best so that it goes nowhere. People here told you several times that you are wrong but you still cling to your bubble. And you play the victim, blaming the others of attacking you.

And speaking of music, I do make some and have many examples. If push comes to shove I can show up to approx. 500 sketches that were made, all in Linux, plus all the finished pieces on soundcloud, without any fussing around with the OS, just starting the computer, logging in, starting Bitwig, powering the Yamaha HS speakers and subwoofer, and ... making music.

[mevla]

You all can keep chasing the next tool, the only new plugin I look forward to is Zebra3. At 60 I just want to play music not computer whiz.

Zebra3 and Icarus3 updates for me. Since I run Windows VSTs ...

Now everyone go breath some fresh air, it's good for ya

When I mentioned yesterday, by the tone of the discussion, that I went to get some beers from the corner store, it was figuratively speaking. It's actually down the mountain and there are no corners. This morning before starting the woodstove it was 44°F inside which is very nice, fresh, no need to put on extra clothing until it warms up. Fresh air expels the organic residues.

[mevla]

https://linuxmusicians.com is great if you just want linux focused discussion without the constant demands to justify your choices.

In all the years I was there the only substantial musical collaboration I heard was the one AJ Bruno and I made. Which I called "LMProject"

Then 2020 came. And insults floated around when different opinions than mainstream were expressed. The Dutch guy in charge, having blocked another user previously for insulting others seemed to be in favour of insults being thrown at people expressing a documented different opinion. Which was the case of AJ Bruno and me, the actual only two people in years who have substantially collaborated in Linux Musicians to actually make some music together. So I left.

https://soundcloud.com/nominal6/lmproject-01v2

There was also another collaboration, although not as substantial, with bass player Wolfgang who replaced the original bass part in a piece I created :

https://soundcloud.com/nominal6/jam112-fretlessbassmix

[egbert101]

Damn this thread is still going? You folks get pretty upset about this stuff don't you?

Never underestimate the passion of a true nerd.

[audiojunkie]

In which universe? Every single issue still exists, maybe even worse. That might be the reason why i didn't even notice the age. It is timeless. I just had the fun with GlibC before a few weeks again.

What was it, if you don't mind giving some details ?

The details are all mentioned in the video. Please watch it. The points are still all valid. Not a single one has changed. It is as actual as if he would have made the video yesterday. Which is even more scary when you realize that the video is eight years old, and not two, as i initially thought. Still a surprise to me. But it shows that it is indeed a conceptual problem that exists since years, and will not magically vanish. Let alone being already all fixed nowadays, like claimed by somebody else here.

You simply have no consistent GlibC version across the distributions. You do not have any consistent way to deliver Software to Linux at all. Linux at the desktop is highly inconsistent by design.

And this inconsistency is part of an unchangeable concept, the strength and at the same time the weakness of Open Source. That everybody can change everything at any point. Since the code is open source. So everybody pulls at the rope, but not necessarily into the same direction. That's where the over 600 distributions, the dozens of package manager, the different desktops etc. comes from. The current standard sucks, the original maintainer is not willing to change, so let's do our own standard ...

Not even versions of the same distribution are necessarily compatible with each other. You can deliver to Debian, or Arch, or Rocky or ... in version x y z . But not generally to Linux. Not even with Snap, Appimage or Flatpak. Because there is not THE Linux. But over 600 distributions who all thinks they are the standard. You have dozens of incompatible package managers. And so on.

And this means that it is for me as a developer quite a pain to develop and to deliver for Linux. It's always the balance to find for example the distribution with the lowest GlibC version that allows me to build a software that runs at as much distributions as possible. And the highest GlibC version that allows me to run my software at the hightest possible technical level. Replace GlibC with any other package that may change with a distro update, and you have a winner. Goddamn Ubuntu amateurs. One does not change a Python dependency with a point upgrade. And you have to deliver more than one package when you want to have a significant reach. Usually a deb or any other package format, a tar, and a appimage / snap / flatpak

Sorry for the long forewords, i had to explain the general situation before i can go into your requested detail.

The software that we develop was not starting at Ubuntu 22 anymore in our vm. We could compile it, but not longer test if the result works. This is nothing unusual, and can happen at any point. And then you need to find a solution. Sometimes you can simply upgrade to the next version. But sometimes not. When the GlibC version is too high for example, and the software compiled at this distro would not start at another distro anymore.

So we migrated from Ubuntu 22 (too low OpenGL. Dependency hell anybody?) to Ubuntu 23 (too high GlibC, wouldn't work at Debian 12 anymore for example) to Rocky 8 (too low GlibC to build Appimage) to Rocky 9 (Useless, killed by Redhat, which pulled the dependency plug. Was a funny installation anyways, one important ok button to continue was offscreen) to Debian 11 (too low GlibC for Appimage, and too low OpenGL) to Debian12 ( Finally. Did i mention the drama with the Gnome desktop? Is Cinnamon now) . Always setting up everyting from scratch to get it to work. Always testing and checking for the caveats.

It finally worked. Just to quit after two more weeks with the same reason that made us leave Ubuntu 22. Compiled software does not start anymore. Maybe a Mesa driver update will fix this in the future. But for now, three weeks of work for the birds. At least the GlibC version fits now better. Yay.

And this was just the latest drama which is even not finally resolved. I had so many of these moments before.

At Windows i compile a exe. And the result simply works. Hassle free. Everywhere. For minimum the next ten years. And here are also the users ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

But it does not stop here. Next problem is already the support chapter ... could you please explain me how to use the bash ... how do i install a deb? ... why don't you deliver for my favourite unknown Distro, we have three users that would be happy ... I heavily modified my Linux, and your software is now not starting anymore ... I downloaded your deb, and it does not work at my Rocky, your software sucks ... I use Ubuntu 12, why is your software not working here? ...

Ah the fun

As told, that's where the lack of software at Linux comes from. It's always a drama involved at one point. And it is much more work and support necessary. And not every software developer is willing to play this game.

--------------------------

The rest of your comments is again ad hominem and an attempt to pick me apart. And I think you know it pretty well. And that's where i am out then. I will not discuss with toxic people.

When you think that personal attacks and attempts to discredit me is the correct way to discuss then this happens without me. This counts also for the other toxic moron here who thinks he can call me a troll and with other names and spreads the usual propaganda lies and tries to throw me to death with his strawmen to make me quiet. I am quiet, but for different reason. A fine example of our Linux community he is. Yes, our, i am a Linux user too. Like it or not. I just don't wear pink glasses all the time. And you cannot tell me nonsense. I know a few things.

It does simply not help to kill the messenger. All i did was to explain the reason why so few musicians uses Linux. Since this question was risen. From an angle of somebody who uses both, Linux and Windows, has some background knowledge too, and is not trapped in a bubble and ideology.

Which leads me to the initial question of this thread. Yes, quite a few Linux users are somehow paranoid when it comes to their golden Linux calf. Unfortunately :/

This discussion leads to nowhere. Let's make some music

Note: I have now gone back to this message, and separated the “Wall-O-Text” into paragraphs for improved readability.


I see that you mentioned Flatpaks, Appimages, and even Snaps. But, you conveniently left out Distrobox. I think you know darn well that this is the solution, but just so you can keep whining you chose to not mention it.

In my line of work, I’ve over and over supported programmers, and I keep finding the same thing—they know lots of code; they know how to compile; but they just don’t understand the internals of how a computer works.

If something breaks on their system, they don’t know how to fix it. If something gets corrupted, they don’t know how to fix it. It’s not their line of work. Their line of work is engineering software. As long as their systems are running, they can do their jobs and do them well. But, when their systems stop working, they are stuck and need my help to get things running again.

Now, I completely understand that many programmers are not this way. I wouldn’t dare stereotype all programmers like this. I’m absolutely certain that there are many of them (hopefully most of them) that can not only develop software, but can also fix and resolve their own computer problems when they arise. I am just stating what I am seeing in my particular field, and in my own personal experience. What I’m trying to determine, is what kind of developer you are.

Containerization is the future, and not only with Linux, but also with Windows and MacOS. And, containerization is not only for servers anymore—it’s for desktops as well.

I’m not talking virtualization, which is different, and inefficient. Virtualization has its place as well. I’m not talking about emulation, or even compatibility layers. Each technology has its place. There are different tools for different jobs. Whether dealing with Windows or MacOs or Linux, it is the same—there are different technologies that can be used to interact with different operating systems.

What you are forgetting (or ignoring?) is that the world of “Linux” is not a single operating system like Windows or MacOs—linux is 600+ different operating systems, composed of various versions of various libraries and packages, and using the same kernel—Linux.

It makes no sense to think of Linux like Windows or Macos, because Windows and MacOS are single operating systems. You have to think of linux differently—especially as a developer.

When seeking developing solutions to writing programs that will work across different OSes, there are a couple of ways to go—you can make sure the libraries all match, or you can separate the libraries from each other.

For years, Linux as a whole tried to come up with a common base of tools that could be agreed on, but that failed. No one could agree on a common base.

This turned out to be a weakness and a strength (as you alluded to previously). This is no different than Windows and Mac not being able to agree on a common base of tools, and it shouldn’t be expected of Linux either, since each distro is its own operating system. So, that leaves the industry with the only other solution: virtualization, containerization, and compatibility layer technologies.

Doubtless, people have heard the recent mention of the word “immutability” as an up and coming computer technology. Put simply, immutability is the concept of having the base of an operating system made readable-only. It can’t be changed.

All of the major families of operating systems are moving to it, not just Windows or MacOs, but Linux as well. The most famous of these immutable operating systems is Fedora Silverblue (actually an “Atomic” os, but for the sake of simplifying the conversation, I’ll continue to say, “Immutable”).

These systems use containerization tools, tightly integrated with the base OS to maintain a separation between the base, immutable OS, and the containerized mutable (changeable) part. These include Flatpak, Appimages, Snaps, and toolbx and Distrobox. For separate GUI-based apps, Flatbox, Appimages, and Snaps work well.

However, for software that was developed on different OSes, toolbx and Distrobox is used. Toolbx is Fedora’s personal choice for their integrated line of immutable OSes, and Distrobox is the the more general use containerization tool. For the sake of conversation, I’ll just mention Distrobox from now on.

The way these containers work is like a much more capable chroot command—the base system’s kernel and drivers and configurations are used to run the containerized OS components on top. What this means, is that the container benefits from the performance and low latency of the configured base os, but runs the libraries and files of a different os, with almost no performance loss. So, for example, I can have my preferred Fedora base that would remain untouched, and I can run apps and tools written for any other linux OS in containers on top.

Software developers can develop for any linux distro they want, and it can run in any base distro a user chooses, without any libraries affecting each other—including glibc. Because of the tight integration, each container can see, read, write, and use the mutable base os’s home directory. App launchers can be seamlessly exported to the base os’s desktop and start menus.

Put simply, you use any linux distro you want. You develop in any distro you want, and everything works without there ever being a dependency problem ever. To the user, it all works seamlessly as one os, even if all of this is happening under the hood. This is the future of all OSes, but especially for Linux.

I’ll give a personal example: I use Fedora Workstation, with Flatpacks and Distrobox with an Ubuntu container for my audio work. Everything looks and runs as if I an running Fedora my Gnome desktop, but in reality, my audio tools are from the Ubuntu and KXStudio repos.

So, as I said, all dependency problems are solved in Linux, as long as the user installs things as they should be installed.

TLDR: With great freedom comes great responsibility. As long as a user implements the available tools properly: using only the package manager and repository that comes with the distro for the base OS, using Flatpak, Appimages, or Snaps for GUI based apps used on that base OS, and using Toolbx or Distrobox for everything else, there is no longer any dependency hell in the Linux world, and you can use every application available in the Linux world on your system (regardless of originating distro) without problem.

[revvy]

Do Linux users tend to write longer, epic forum posts?

[audiojunkie]

Probably. We’re passionate.

Edit: And you’ve got to be willing to read and learn if you want to benefit from the power and flexibility of “Linux”.

[BBFG#]

Do Linux users tend to write longer, epic forum posts?

Interesting. People writing verbose posts deriding Linux are not called out, but when an experiencef Linux user answers them it triggers an ad hominem et nauseam.

Sorry to see that post edited with all that information removed now. It was more important than the previous derisions IMO.

Emotional blackmail from MSApple users basically worried that their lovers are leaving them...
(Back at ya!)

[revvy]

Do Linux users tend to write longer, epic forum posts?

Interesting. People writing verbose posts deriding Linux are not called out, but when an experiencef Linux user answers them it triggers an ad hominem et nauseam.

Sorry to see that post edited with all that information removed now. It was more important than the previous derisions IMO.

Emotional blackmail from MSApple users basically worried that their lovers are leaving them...

Such sensitive. So overreact. Physician heal thyself.

[revvy]

Probably. We’re passionate.

Edit: And you’ve got to be willing to read and learn if you want to benefit from the power and flexibility of “Linux”.

Sounds great!

I'm far too lazy to bother but I see the attraction.

[BBFG#]

Do Linux users tend to write longer, epic forum posts?

Interesting. People writing verbose posts deriding Linux are not called out, but when an experiencef Linux user answers them it triggers an ad hominem et nauseam.

Sorry to see that post edited with all that information removed now. It was more important than the previous derisions IMO.

Emotional blackmail from MSApple users basically worried that their lovers are leaving them...

Such sensitive. So overreact. Physician heal thyself.

And again, you call out what you need to do yourself. (Because then I wouldn't have had to answer your sensitive overreaction.)
Hence the 'Back at ya'.

[revvy]

confused-2-ezgif.com-webp-to-jpg-converter.jpg

[BBFG#]

Probably. We’re passionate.

Edit: And you’ve got to be willing to read and learn if you want to benefit from the power and flexibility of “Linux”.

Hoping you'll repost those points you made before editing without addressing a specific member. I found them valid and valuable.