SWAY - a synth modeled after the Yamaha SY77

[himalaya]

Simply being able to modulate the 'ratio' parameter would create hundreds upon hundreds of new sounds.

...immediately making this a non-accurate 'emulation' of the SY77.

My friend, this SY77 plugin will never be an accurate emulation since it will not ship with the original sample content. Personally, I’m more than ok with that. But some people desire the original samples and for them this makes it non-accurate already! So, what now?

Speaking of more modulation options.
I’m talking about an addition of a modulation destination one that you don’t have to use. We are not talking about changing something in the actual synth engine like…reducing the amount of operator waveforms. You know about those?

FM is best when it’s modulated. In many different ways. You don’t want static FM sounds, not usually, and luckily the SY77 has some nice options to awake the sound with those super flexible envelopes and velocity sensitivity control for each operator. But, SY77 misses many obvious tricks one of which, the most obvious one is modulation of the ratio values in each operator. This gives startling results. It’s the sort of effect that if it were assigned to a knob, people would never let go of it, tweaking that knob forever while shouting: “effem! I love FM!”.

[himalaya]

You know, I want to use the thing but I don't want to maintain another 30 years old hardware dinosaur. So I want it ITB, warts and all, as close as possible. Multiple instances and routing through whatever other effects I want on a case by case basis. That's all.

And yes, I totally would use that reverb exactly as is, for period correct game soundtrack sorta stuff and so on.

“Period correct game soundtracks” ??
That’s your excuse?

Also here you write as if you own it, but yet you end up using YouTube to hear the reverb for yourself. Eh?

[seafire]

Simply being able to modulate the 'ratio' parameter would create hundreds upon hundreds of new sounds.

...immediately making this a non-accurate 'emulation' of the SY77.

My friend, this SY77 plugin will never be an accurate emulation since it will not ship with the original sample content. Personally, I’m more than ok with that. But some people desire the original samples and for them this makes it non-accurate already! So, what now?

They are available though, as well as all the expansion cards. Same deal as the Motorola based emulations that are currently being made I guess.

[sheaf]

There is nothing nostalgic about this reverb, nothing deserving of 'emulation', and I hope the dev will come to his senses and at least provide an alternative.

Regarding modulation. SY77 assigns controllers in the most archaic of ways. Did you ever try it? I think a full blow mod-matrix is a lot to ask, but an extra window with a few more destinations would open it up to some amazing sounds. Trust me. I'm a doctor. Simply being able to modulate the 'ratio' parameter would create hundreds upon hundreds of new sounds.

When I started the project I was thinking about which route to go:

1) Make something based on the SY77 but with added modern features. Sort of like what Arturia does with their synth emulations.
2) Make something as close as possible to the original and have SysEx patch compatibility too so it can be used as a programmer/patch librarian for the hardware.

I knew that whatever I would choose some people will agree with it, and others will disagree. I decided to go for 2 and I'm sticking with that, so no mod matrix because that would make the synth fundamentally different.

But I did mention in my original reply (maybe you missed that part?) that I would probably add a switch to the FX section to swap out the reverbs for higher quality ones. The high quality reverbs would still be matched in terms of echo density, but without the metallic ringing. It's just an optional feature to render the sound in a bit higher quality. I consider it a feature similar to oversampling. It's not something the original hardware has, but still worthwile to add since they offer a quick route to a better sound without fundamentally breaking patch compatibility. And if you want to stick to the original sound you can just leave them off.

[R_A]

2) Make something as close as possible to the original and have SysEx patch compatibility too so it can be used as a programmer/patch librarian for the hardware.

This is the correct choice. The SY77 effects have their own flavour and should be honoured!

Good luck with your project. I'm a long time TG77 user and look forward to the release.

[himalaya]

2) Make something as close as possible to the original and have SysEx patch compatibility too so it can be used as a programmer/patch librarian for the hardware.

That is great, but a better reverb, one that doesn't ring like a metallic can soaked in acid, will not affect SysEx patch compatibility.

But I did mention in my original reply (maybe you missed that part?) that I would probably add a switch to the FX section to swap out the reverbs for higher quality ones. The high quality reverbs would still be matched in terms of echo density, but without the metallic ringing. It's just an optional feature to render the sound in a bit higher quality.

This is also great. Maybe I can rest in peace now.
I would only love to see you move from "probably" to "definitely". If you are planning to add this option, then it only makes sense to go for a lovely sounding reverb without matching any of the detrimental sonic characteristics of that original reverb. And also please do it for the delays, by having a similar switch to add proper delays, and not a hollow staircase echo. The SY77 deserves better reverb+delay.

[seafire]

You should offer to do a free factory bank, he might be more inclined to move from probably...

[himalaya]

no mod matrix because that would make the synth fundamentally different.

I'm good with that. I didn't ask for a mod-matrix, it was another person. What I did ask for is an options page to allow modulation of operator 'ratio'. This page could have some additions like temp sync too.

Some ideas:

- modulate the 'ratio' parameter for each operator with: envelope, LFO, mod-wheel, velocity, aftertouch, as a minimum. Should you add MPE, then it would require CC74 too. And my Holy Oscillator! Modulating ratio via MPE would lead to some extraordinary sounds, especially if the SY77 plugin gives us long, lush reverbs and delays....oh yeah!

- being able to control the attack and/or decay stages of an envelope is always a huge bonus. But these are multi-stage envelopes so I don't know how feasible it is.

- maybe provide an alternative way to assign controllers that the SY77 already allows for. The original method is most counter intuitive with several pages of controller stuff to wade through. So one page that collects all the controller-related parameters into easy to understand view.

- Set LFO tempo sync

- Set envelope tempo sync - I think this is a big one. The multi-stage envelopes have user-selectable loop stages. Understandably, the original SY77 doesn't have tempo sync, but the plugin ought to have it in 2024. Syncing these gorgeous cascades of sound emanating from the looping envelopes to tempo in your DAW would be one of the very first things you'd want to do in your DAW. I can already see people asking for this after the release. Many sounds will be unusable in context of a mix without tempo sync.

So this is about some logical additions that would not break SysEx compatibility if it all lives on the 'Options' page.

[sheaf]

Like I said, I chose to go with option 2 so that's a no to any of those things. If I would add these kind of features you could make patches that can no longer transfer to a SY77/TG77 hardware unit.

I recommend you check out "F'em" by Tracktion. That's way more in line with what you're looking for, rather than a SY77 emulation.

[himalaya]

If I would add these kind of features you could make patches that can no longer transfer to a SY77/TG77 hardware unit.

I don't see it as a problem, especially as you really want to appeal to people who don't have the hardware and this point will be lost on them.

Myself, I'd never want to transfer any presets from an SY77 emu plugin to my SY77 hardware. I don't see the point. These are truly old digital beasts with buttons that are failing, LCD screens that are failing, won't mention the floppy drive on the SY77 that doesn't work for a lot of people. The less I have to use mine, the longer it will live.
Perhaps, the only thing that makes playing on the SY77 a good experience is the keyboard action. But the TG77 doesn't have one, so...

I'd want to use this SY77 'emulation' in my DAW projects with some modern, standard additions like LFO and Envelope tempo sync as the minimum. I'm sad to hear that even such basics are out of the question.

[JamminFool]

it sounds like sheaf has a vision and is pretty firm in wanting to realize it. i applaud his focus.

[Cochrane]

it sounds like sheaf has a vision and is pretty firm in wanting to realize it. i applaud his focus.

Yes, I support sheaf vision too: SY-77 deserves a real, pure, good, no-frills, sysex-level emulation!
The only thing I can suggest sheaf, maybe in later releases, to support also SY-99 (the FX section was completely redone and really, really better in 99!).

Thanks and keep on with this much anticipated dream of SY-77 emulating plugin!

[mholloway]

Now I'm confused I'll over again... I thought that since this 'emulation' cannot and will not ever have the original's in-memory Sampled sounds, doing sysex import in either direction wouldn't work... clearly loading a patch from the hardware that uses the samples isn't going to translate. Is the idea to emulate "Just the FM portion" and any sysex compatibility is limited to patches that ignore the sample-side of the synth entirely?

[Uncle E]

I sampled nearly all of the commercial SY77 patch libraries. Thousands of patches. I don't know what the legality is of using them but sheaf is welcome to have them if you would like to use them in this product.

[seafire]

Now I'm confused I'll over again... I thought that since this 'emulation' cannot and will not ever have the original's in-memory Sampled sounds....

Included maybe, but they are available