Bye bye VST2

[jamcat]

It's like a cult of personality around a plugin format.

You don't say!
I'm half inclined to go full Jens and change my tagline to say:
"It's like a cult of personality around a plugin format." Funkybot's Evil Twin, talking about CLAP plugins

The difference is I'm not telling developers CLAP is superior and they don't know their business. I'm stating that I would prefer to favor the CLAP format. And the reason is because it's an open format and should be better for the industry in the longer term than any of the little monopolies Steiny, Apple, and Avid try to create. We're not doing the same thing.

My reason for preferring VST3 is pretty simple: it's the format that all of my plugins actually already are. And yours too. It's weird though, that I am somehow able to use VST3 plugins in Studio One on my Mac, with Steinberg and Apple being the "monopolies" that they are. Weirder still is that they actually work!

But let me know when I can install all of my 600+ plugins as CLAP and open them in my DAW. Then I'll gladly join your CLAP cult. There's about 20 so far, so just 580 to go!

[pdxindy]

focusing on one word – monopoly - isn't very helpful when looking at the situation.

Focusing on that word is just another method to distract... Steinberg has been a poor steward of an industry standard. If that weren't the case, then things would not be where they are. If they had listened to developers in the first place, they would never have had to resort to strong-arming them into compliance.

[jamcat]

Prior to CLAP, there was no alternative to VST2/VST3 plugins on Windows. AAX is locked to one DAW. So Steiny had full control over the Windows plugin market. And they've exercised that control by strong arming the death of VST2. That's monopolistic behavior. Without any alternative, they could do the same with VST3 years from now and release an even worse VST4. And Apple controls AU on Mac, which at least has other format options. So a bit less Monopolistic there.

CLAP presents the first real viable alternative to that Windows plugin format monopoly.

But was it SB's fault there was no alternative to vst2/vst3 on windows? Have they actively or inactively tried to shut down other plugin formats on windows. That is what a monopoly does, shuts down its competition.
Developers were quite happy using vst2 at NO COST to themselves to make products they could then sell....
Naw I think you are stretching here.


rsp

Yes, they did! By using their vice-like grip to shut down their own plugin format, which was their only competition!

[gaggle of hermits]

...
focusing on one word – monopoly - isn't very helpful when looking at the situation.

unless monopoly was the word I took umbrage to.

that was my point.

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

Monopoly was my word. And I stand by it. They pretty much own Windows plugin development at current.

It's not totally hard to imagine why, if you make plugins today, it may not be the best idea to be entirely dependent on Steiny, a company that makes their own DAW and the entire Windows plugin market, to have that much sway over your entire business. It wasn't a problem until it was, and they started using their bully pulpit to retroactive change agreements. Suddenly, it's real easy to imagine them using that power again in ways that business owners (plugin makers) may not think aligns with their interests. Extreme hypothetical example: what if overnight Steiny said, we are opening an App Store and want 30% off the top of all plugin sales and control of distribution. And only signed plugins will work in Cubase. And if you release any VST3 plugins outside of this new agreement, we'll go after you.

Yeah, probably will never happen but CLAP, an open format, would help free developers from any of Steiny's whims and protect their business as a hedge against potential future abuses.

[gaggle of hermits]

Do you know why vst3 came into being?

I think many people have conveniently forgotten that Steinberg originally tried to do a proprietary version for its own instruments and effects within cubase:

"Unlike the earlier versions of Cubase SX, which added interesting tools for musicians to embrace, Cubase 4, if I'm being honest, just didn't seem that exciting to me. Most of the new functionality centred around the new Media Bay, which only really helped you navigate the content that was provided by Steinberg, and VST3, an update to Steinberg's plug‑in technology that was initially unavailable to third‑party developers."

from sound on sound's review of cubase 5.

frankly, it explains a lot about the mess they made of it. originally, compatibility with vst2 wasn't a big deal because it was in-house only and being in-house only the API could be whatever their lead developer wanted. then they released it and everyone else looked at it and wondered "WTF did you do here?"

this was a hole that took a very long time to dig and probably based on a single idiotic decision a decade and a half ago.

[urosh]

deleted: misidentification

[aMUSEd]

Thanks!
I'm doing further tests and so far Reaper 7.x and Studio One 6 migrate without any hassles. If they don't find the VST2 of an existing project and there's only the VST3, the instances are automatically replaced preserving the automations. Live 11 won't do that at all and Cubase 13 doesn't seem to support VST2 at all. I have to see if I have an old installation of Cubase 11/12 in my old machines to make further tests.

Yeah Live doesn’t support migration at all, despite just releasing a major update it seems this is just not something they see as important

[zvenx]

For sure like Logic and Studio One Pro and I imagine others there are plugins that are only available for use within Cubendo made by Steinberg, but I dont' recall much lapse time between vst3 been announced and third party vst3 plugins being available.

I have been using Cubendo since 2001/2002 and might have been testing Cubendo by 2008 so I would have a fairly good idea when we beta testers got it or heard about it.

"VST3, introduced in 2008, is the latest standard for effect plug-ins and virtual instruments."

https://helpcenter.steinberg.de/hc/en-u ... Background

VirSyn Releases First VST3 Plug-in

By Music Marcom, LLC.
Published: 02/11/2008

(Hamburg, Germany (February 11, 2008))

https://www.mixonline.com/the-wire/virs ... lug-408931

rsp

[urosh]

Yeah Live doesn’t support migration at all, despite just releasing a major update it seems this is just not something they see as important

They did not anticipate cease-and-desist which might not be cease-and-desist (and I'm not sure at this point if anyone in Steinberg has clarity on what is their position in this whole mess).
((Ableton is one company that actually might bring Steinberg to court, depending on how f**ked they are if it is indeed cease-and-desist)).

[zvenx]

Also as I mentioned in the last long SB is the devil convo, maybe the Clap crowd needs to work on an Asio alternative since that too is SB's IP provided free to the industry.
rsp

[zvenx]

...........

VirSyn Releases First VST3 Plug-in

(Hamburg, Germany (February 11, 2008))

https://www.mixonline.com/the-wire/virs ... lug-408931

rsp

oh dear...

"Harry Gohs, VirSyn‘s founder and lead developer commented on the release: “Developing the update for VST3 was problem-free, and it was a very easy transition. "

rsp

[gaggle of hermits]

I have been using Cubendo since 2001/2002 and might have been testing Cubendo by 2008 so I would have a fairly good idea when we beta testers got it or heard about it.

vst3 seems to have been announced in a press release issued in October 2006 along with cubase 4 - mainly for a bunch of built-in effects that iirc made use of the side-chaining interface they built to get around the problems with side-chaining vst2 in cubase:

Germany: Steinberg Media Technologies GmbH announced a new generation of its Cubase music production software range: Cubase 4 and its streamlined sister product, Cubase Studio 4.

"We're very excited about this terrific achievement in music production technology," says Andreas Stelling, Steinberg's General Manager. "It's without doubt the best Cubase ever, and the result of Steinberg's excellent capability in innovation and strong orientation around the needs of musicians and producers, he adds.

Arnd Kaiser, Steinberg's Senior Product Manager for Music Technology, comments: "Cubase 4 has been designed to deliver tools for professionals in a way that opens up new avenues of creativity. Features like SoundFrame[TM], for example, turn previously mundane tasks like browsing for files into a creative part of the composition and production process in a way previously unavailable in music production software."

New features in Cubase 4 include the SoundFrame[TM] universal sound manager that helps users organize, preview and retrieve audio, video and project files, patches for software and hardware synths, track and instrument presets. Another feature, Control Room*, integrates Cubase 4 within analogue monitoring environments with up to four separate monitor mixes, external audio input integration, speaker selection, talkback and more

The new VST3 plug-in set boasts over 30 new plug-ins including StudioEQ*, Cloner, ModMachine, AmpSimulator and guitar tuner, new Multiband Compressor. The new VST instruments include: 3 outstanding new synthesizers: Prologue, Spector* and Mystic* as well as HALion One sample player with hundreds of new instruments based on Yamaha Motif waveform

Cubase Studio 4 is a streamlined version with many of the same technologies. Customers who purchased Cubase 4 will find additional advanced features required for the final production phases including surround support, full Control Room functionality and specialized plug-ins and tools for creating a final mixdown.

I haven't found a release date for the first sdk yet.

[gaggle of hermits]

...........

VirSyn Releases First VST3 Plug-in

(Hamburg, Germany (February 11, 2008))

https://www.mixonline.com/the-wire/virs ... lug-408931

rsp

oh dear...

"Harry Gohs, VirSyn‘s founder and lead developer commented on the release: “Developing the update for VST3 was problem-free, and it was a very easy transition. "

rsp

yes, this shit's so easy harry hasn't updated most of his plugins for years. he pretty much just does AU v3 for iOS now.

[machinesworking]

VirSyn Releases First VST3 Plug-in

Aren't VirSyn currently in a quandry with e-Licenser? Their website links to e-licenser issues when you click on the M1-M2 compatibility link. IMO another example of why it's bad to rely on a third party developer with vested interests in selling the same types of products you sell, plugins and a DAW etc. VirSyns loyalty didn't seem to pay off much.