Bye bye VST2

[machinesworking]

Yet, I stand by my opinion and the past even kinda proves it. Apple says "here's AU, you need it from now on!" and each and every even remotely bigger developer followed suit. Even if it made absolutely no sense, because until this day, nobody has ever sufficiently proven the superiority of AU over VST, not even Apple themselves.
Not exactly the same story here but still sort of similar.

AU was developed explicitly because Apple wanted a format that forced compatibility on OS X. VST at the time being cross platform was proving to be unstable on OS 9. The little secret is VST plugin development is pretty well documented, but hosting is not. Plus it was far more likely to leave Windows code in VST at the time, meaning instant crashes. AU came with Apples plugin evaluation in Logic and DP, forcing a step that prevented at least the most serious offenders from getting loaded into your DAW.

All this was done because VST was a PITA for DAWs, and you can see this clearly in the fact that Mac only DAWs adopted it in a flash, while taking years to adopt VST if ever. Also we essentially got U-He as a developer out of how well documented it is to code for. AU was developed for much the same reasons that CLAP is being developed, but with the massive glaring omission of Windows, and a corporate behemoth as it's creator. To this day though AU is much more likely to be stable in Mac OS than VST3, probably because it has decent hosting docs.

The fact that Logic, PT and Cubendo will always use AU, AAX and VST is irrelevant, CLAP allows for it to be wrapped for those formats, so it can still be the de facto format, not unlike how VST2 is the de facto format today.

[seafire]

Well, I agree. I believe with the current market share of the various DAWs and their userbases. Added to the respective and expected trajectories for each DAW's likelihood of increasing their popularity, within the near future. Would suggest that, as long as FL Studio and Ableton both support CLAP (and one of those two already does), then it's pretty much a done deal.

Yup...

Ableton Live and FL Studio by themselves are probably approaching 50% of the DAW market.

That's just bedroom hobbyists tho... apparently

[pdxindy]

Yup...

Ableton Live and FL Studio by themselves are probably approaching 50% of the DAW market.

Easily! I'd say that could even be rather a conservative estimate at this point.

Assuming Studio One and Live both adopt CLAP (Which I think is highly likely) then you have Live, FL Studio, Reaper, Studio One and Bitwig. My guess then for those 5 would be about 70% of DAW users.

And at that point it is irrelevant what the once "big three" do or don't do.

[Sascha Franck]

I would speculate that those people, in mixing, mastering and the like, working at this point learned using pro-tools/cubarse etc, so there is a certain level of inertia involved.

Oh, very certainly. And seriously, I also thought it'd kinda fade away since a while already.
But then, just as one personal experience: Last year I was involved in a rather big best of musical kinda event, most of the other guys possibly could've been my kids. So, as parts of the show had to be done with some clicktracks, samples and what not, the 7 of us core band dudes were collaborating to slap things together - and we instantly agreed to use Logic as everybody was familiar with it. Now, the drummer used Live to fire those tracks of during the gig, but the entire productional process happened entirely in Logic.

Yeah, might be anecdotal evidence, but at least over here in my realm, it's happening again and again.

[Sascha Franck]

AU was developed explicitly because Apple wanted a format that forced compatibility on OS X. VST at the time being cross platform was proving to be unstable on OS 9. The little secret is VST plugin development is pretty well documented, but hosting is not. Plus it was far more likely to leave Windows code in VST at the time, meaning instant crashes. AU came with Apples plugin evaluation in Logic and DP, forcing a step that prevented at least the most serious offenders from getting loaded into your DAW.

That's all fine and dandy, but for me as a user it had exactly *zero* advances.
Besides, there was very little overlapping of OS9 and AU, so that can't exactly be the reason.

[MrJubbly]

As said before, I am quite aware that things are vastly different on the hobbyist market.

What if the "hobbyists" outnumbered the "pros" by 10-to-1 (or even a far higher ratio), would or should the plugin developers actually care?

If a sale is a sale, regardless of the customer's status in the industry, then why would that be anything to concern such a business?

If 50 people use Ableton/FL Studio to 5 people using Cubase/Logic/Pro Tools, then are those "Pros" going to buy x10+ licences each for their plugins, to make up the difference?

The point is, popularity and profitability is what most businesses cater towards. So, if that is coming mainly from "hobbyists" using FL Studio/Ableton, rather than those other DAWs, why would CLAP need to be supported by those less-profitable userbases of those other less-popular DAWs?

It doesn't really make any commercial sense.

If vastly more customers use FL Studio/Ableton, and those DAWs will support CLAP, then it makes commercial sense to prioritise support to those DAWs and customers' needs and demands, since that's where your main bread and butter lies (more profit for plugin developers).

[Sascha Franck]

And at that point it is irrelevant what the once "big three" do or don't do.

No it's not. Simply because the main plugin developers will still have to support multiple formats.

[jens]

That probably depends on what you mean with "the industry". I have a hunch you mean the studio owners who are struggling for survival as we speak (unless of course they already went the way of the dodo years ago).

These as well, but not even really.
I have a whole bunch of colleagues and friends working with DAWs in all sort of contexts. And while some of them use Ableton Live for live or "side-work", not one of them is using it to finalize anything. And FL is pretty much as if it didn't even exist in those circles.
I just played a subbing gig last weekend, 8 people. It came to a brief DAW talk. All of them but one would use Logic, the one guy left would mainly use Live and two other guys would use Live in addition to Logic. And that was it.

As said before, I am quite aware that things are vastly different on the hobbyist market. But as long as some poster boys are involved, chances are that not much will change.

But you should be aware that your own experiences are merely anecdotal since it depends a lot on yourself and the company you chose.

I live in Switzerland and most people use Apple here because people have far too much money on their hands. I had a meeting at work the other day (planning stage of a film-festival - so that's a certain clientele) and everyone had their laptops with them. It was funny for me to see that my Zenbook was the only non Apple-machine - made my day tbh . Does that mean a thing? It doesn't.

[donkey tugger]

I would speculate that those people, in mixing, mastering and the like, working at this point learned using pro-tools/cubarse etc, so there is a certain level of inertia involved.

Oh, very certainly. And seriously, I also thought it'd kinda fade away since a while already.
But then, just as one personal experience: Last year I was involved in a rather big best of musical kinda event, most of the other guys possibly could've been my kids. So, as parts of the show had to be done with some clicktracks, samples and what not, the 7 of us core band dudes were collaborating to slap things together - and we instantly agreed to use Logic as everybody was familiar with it. Now, the drummer used Live to fire those tracks of during the gig, but the entire productional process happened entirely in Logic.

Yeah, might be anecdotal evidence, but at least over here in my realm, it's happening again and again.

I suppose as well, a lot of those people have been on 'production' or 'music technology' courses, rather than muddling through being self-taught, and are likely to continue using whatever they used at their particular institution, so the baton is passed, so to speak. That could be a factor.

[pdxindy]

Ableton Live and FL Studio by themselves are probably approaching 50% of the DAW market.

That's just bedroom hobbyists tho... apparently

And those "bedroom hobbyists" outnumber pro studios 500:1 and they buy most of the plugins sold.

[machinesworking]

Easily! I'd say that could even be rather a conservative estimate at this point.

Although, you'd struggle to accurately gauge that, here on the KVR forum, as this particular medium, hardly reflects the real-world, actual userbase of all the various DAWs and their userbases, as observed and compared across almost every other social media platform regarding music production.

So, its understandable then, how many longstanding KVR users (perhaps, leaning more towards the older generation), may not think that. Especially those, who predominantly only frequent this forum for many years. They likely wouldn't have realised, just how much more popular Ableton and FL Studio have actually become (than those other DAWs), in more recent times. At least, over this past decade or so.

It's common to find on KVR, users of Cubase, Logic and Pro Tools, vastly overestimating the current popularity of those DAWs with the general public. That's something you'll always see on KVR, even if that isn't observable on the vast majority of other multi-platform and multi-DAW social media & forums.

I think one thing most people underestimate when looking at popularity of DAWs etc. is how many more people are interested in DAWs in the last 15 or so years compared to previously. It's absolutely skyrocketed. It's not that Logic, PT, Cubase are not popular DAWs, their user base I would bet hasn't significantly changed, (especially Logic), it's that electronic music done on a computer i.e. a "producer" is absolutely the most common musician these days, when 15 years ago it was 100% guitar and indie rock etc.

Every musician I know owns a DAW these days, I used to be the rarity and now I'm not, especially with the under 30 crowd. It's also more common than not to own Bitwig and Reaper, or Cubase and FL Studio, or Reason and Pro Tools. It's entirely common to own a modern music production DAW and a more advanced audio editing and mastering DAW. Hell hardly anyone produced entirely on Live back in the day.

[MrJubbly]

Yup...

Ableton Live and FL Studio by themselves are probably approaching 50% of the DAW market.

Easily! I'd say that could even be rather a conservative estimate at this point.

Assuming Studio One and Live both adopt CLAP (Which I think is highly likely) then you have Live, FL Studio, Reaper, Studio One and Bitwig. My guess then for those 5 would be about 70% of DAW users.

And at that point it is irrelevant what the once "big three" do or don't do.

I mean, you've just named all of the imho "truly relevant" DAWs currently. That occupy most of the market and/or seem likely to continue attracting most new customers (meaning, only increasing their popularity going forwards).

As for those here on KVR, who strongly disagree ... only time will tell who was right.

[pdxindy]

And at that point it is irrelevant what the once "big three" do or don't do.

No it's not. Simply because the main plugin developers will still have to support multiple formats.

CLAP wraps to AU, VST and AAX... so no problem supporting the old dinosaurs...

[Sascha Franck]

But you should be aware that your own experiences are merely anecdotal since it depends a lot on yourself and the company you chose.

That's nonsense. In case I am called as a sub and each and everyone out of the band is using Logic, it's got exactly nothing to do with me being a Logic user.

[jens]

But you should be aware that your own experiences are merely anecdotal since it depends a lot on yourself and the company you chose.

That's nonsense. In case I am called as a sub and each and everyone out of the band is using Logic, it's got exactly nothing to do with me being a Logic user.