Bye bye VST2

[jens]

How long did it take Reaper to implement CLAP ?
I think it was very quick. It doesn’t seem to be rocket science. Maybe it will be easy for Ableton, and it’s just a question of strategic choice (that seems to be the right moment, given the mess with Steinberg).

Schwa had an experimental built within days after CLAP was originally published iIrc...

[machinesworking]

Read what everyone before you actually said. And what I've said. The problems originate in the way specific hosts implement VST3. If you want VST3 work, make sure you use a DAW that has properly implemented VST3. At the very least, that includes Cubase and Studio One.

I've used VST3 for years, and I've had no problems. I never have any crashes with VST3. But I use Studio One, so my experience is probably a lot different from someone using a host with a history of poor implementation.

You know that quote, "if you think everybody's an arsehole, maybe YOU are the arsehole"?

If essentially all hosts (including Reaper, which has a very limited selection of stock plugins, therefore it should have more of an incentive to make VST3 work) have problems implementing VST3, how is it the DAW makers' fault?

It's simpler than that probably. Studio One is developed in part by someone who used to work on Nuendo, VST3 was I would bet already a thing they were working on when he quit. So the two DAWs that do not have "poor implementation", also have inside information on hosting VST3.

I mean this is one of the major reasons why CLAP is something in the first place, low to no host loyalties with implementation, unlike AU which uses MIDI out from a AUi in a way that only Logic and a few plugin host applications can use, and VST3 which works best with DAWs designed by people who work, or worked for Steinberg.

[jamcat]

Yes, and actually, the principle author of Studio One, Matthias Juwan, wrote the VST3 spec while at Steinberg. He's now vice-president of PreSonus Software. The other original Studio One developer, Wolfgang Kundrus, had been the primary developer of Nuendo/Cubase SX.

I suppose this may be in part why I've had zero problems with VST3 plugins for nearly 15 years.

[machinesworking]

Yes, and actually, the principle developer of Studio One, Matthias Juwan, wrote the VST3 spec while at Steinberg. The other original Studio One developer, Wolfgang Kundrus, had been the primary developer of Nuendo/Cubase SX.

I suppose this may be in part why I've had zero problems with VST3 plugins for nearly 15 years.

Yes and the fact that you know this, and still called out other DAWs flying in the dark on hosting VST3, as having "poor implementation" is in bad taste IMO. CLAP is a thing because of Steinberg's bad hosting documentation coupled with complete rewriting of plugin handling in VST3. You dodged a bullet using Studio One, you should be more gracious towards other DAW users, just saying.

Oh, and no way you've had "zero" problems, you use U-He, his initial VST3's were plagued with issues as he struggled to port.

[jamcat]

I'm simply stating what is. It doesn't matter why (some) other hosts have problems with VST3. That's not my concern. My concern is using what works. If given a choice between something that works and something that doesn't, why would you choose the one that doesn't?

So for me, what matters is having all of the plugins I use working in my DAW right now. And that means Studio One. Maybe one day all plugins will also be CLAP, rather than only a tiny fraction of them (mostly plugins I don't own, and very few that I do.) Then maybe your choice of DAW wouldn't matter as much as it does right now. But also, the widespread adoption of CLAP, should it ever come to pass, will almost certainly lead to Steinberg responding by documenting VST3 hosting better, which would solve the original problem.

Oh, and no way you've had "zero" problems, you use U-He, his initial VST3's were plagued with issues as he struggled to port.

No I don't. Where do you get that from?

You dodged a bullet using Studio One, you should be more gracious towards other DAW users

No, I just did my homework.

[MirkoVanHauten]

After 15 years, only the VST3 inventors are capable of properly implementing their interface... CLAP should use that for their advertisement. You can't make it more clear to devs.

[jamcat]

I don't think that's true at all. It seems like it's mostly Ableton Live users who are complaining about shoddy VST3, and perhaps only when it comes to certain plugins.

I will point to Universal Audio native UADx plugins, which support VST3, but not VST2. The native UADx plugins are off-the-charts popular, and yet I haven't seen any users complaining about them not working, which I think we would see a lot of, if there were actually widespread VST3 problems across all these DAWs. And Universal Audio would never have released them as VST3-only, forgoing VST2 completely, if VST3 was so flawed. Also, I don't see UA releasing them for CLAP anytime soon, if ever.

[machinesworking]

I'm simply stating what is. It doesn't matter why (some) other hosts have problems with VST3. That's not my concern. My concern is using what works. If given a choice between something that works and something that doesn't, why would you choose the one that doesn't?

So for me, what matters is having all of the plugins I use working in my DAW right now. And that means Studio One. Maybe one day all plugins will also be CLAP, rather than only a tiny fraction of them (mostly plugins I don't own, and very few that I do.) Then maybe your choice of DAW wouldn't matter as much as it does right now. But also, the widespread adoption of CLAP, should it ever come to pass, will almost certainly lead to Steinberg responding by documenting VST3 hosting better, which would solve the original problem.

Your "concern" is a lot more than just using what works, as evidenced by the inordinate amount of time you spent arguing against CLAP in that relevant thread. That's not concern, that's blatant tribalism, at least that's how it reads to most of us, and why so many people here tend to jump to ad hominum with you. If it isn't tribalism then I don't really know what it is, it flatly reads no other way, because if you were truly happy with VST3 then you wouldn't give a rats ass about what people said about CLAP, or if it existed at all.

Oh, and no way you've had "zero" problems, you use U-He, his initial VST3's were plagued with issues as he struggled to port.

No I don't. Where do you get that from?

You do not own any U-He products? OK I thought you said you did. Nevermind.

You dodged a bullet using Studio One, you should be more gracious towards other DAW users

No, I just did my homework.

Personally back when Studio One first came out I tried it and found it inferior to DP and Logic. I'm sure it's great now, people love it, but let's be real here, that's not what I was saying. I was trying to point out that you come across like some fascist with Asperger’s who only cares about works for him, whose slightly threatened by other plugin formats and parades around in every thread about plugin formats completely oblivious to other people, their concern etc.

News flash, Studio One isn't the only DAW that covers all three current "open" formats, Live and DP both host AU, VST2 and 3. Nobody who uses those DAWs is that affected by the obvious technical nepotism that Cubendo and Studio One have with VST3, we can always use the AU version. The Windows users are on the other hand, going to suffer unless Steinberg changes their game, and I see nothing like that happening here.

I have only empathy for the Windows users of DAWs that are struggling reverse engineering VST3 support, and that, is where we really part ways, you've shown nothing but contempt for anyone not using Studio One, or thinking that CLAP is a great answer. Maybe it's time to show some empathy? this could get pretty ugly as tens of thousands of people on Windows switch to VST3, and expose a plethora of hitherto unknown bugs.

[Jac459]

Read what everyone before you actually said. And what I've said. The problems originate in the way specific hosts implement VST3. If you want VST3 work, make sure you use a DAW that has properly implemented VST3. At the very least, that includes Cubase and Studio One.

I've used VST3 for years, and I've had no problems. I never have any crashes with VST3. But I use Studio One, so my experience is probably a lot different from someone using a host with a history of poor implementation.

But what about the new features offered by CLAP? Aren't you interested?

That's odd to me because:
1. The features are great.
2. This is an open format so other new features will arrive.

[jamcat]

Look, I just bat down the blatant falsehoods about VST3, because my actual experience with it says otherwise. There is a metric tonne of hyperbole about VST3 going around. I get it, some people want to support CLAP, not for what it is today, but what they imagine it can one day be, and they will say anything to advance their cause. But that's how zealots are made. And if they resort to ad hominems when confronted by reality, that really shouldn't be surprising to anyone. But ad hominems always say more about the person directing them than the person they're directed at. I'm just glad they can't stone me to death or burn me at the stake.

[sjm]

Look, I just bat down the blatant falsehoods about VST3, because my actual experience with it says otherwise.

That's the issue I think a lot of people are taking umbrage with. You are conflating your own, anecdotal experience with a universal truth. It's like saying, "I don't know anyone who is going hungry, so famine isn't a thing, and anyone who says so is talking out their ass".

Unsurprisingly, that's not how any of this works.

[jamcat]

Like I said, if any of that was actually true, then Universal Audio UADx plugins wouldn't be both massively popular and VST3-only.

[Calagan]

Wow. Will this conversation run endlessly on the subject of vst3 being good or evil ?
I was thinking the main issue was the huge mess Steinberg is doing, and the fact CLAP could fix such issues in the future (being open source).
By the way, I'm an Ableton Live user and I don't have particular problems with vst3 (at least not more than with vst2).
But I'm deeply annoyed by the time consuming task of migrationg from NI vst2 to NI vst3 in my old sessions (task complicated by the Apple Silicon disruption and the fact NI release updgrades that are not retro-compatible, like Kontakt 5, Kontakt 6, Kontakt 7 etc. etc.)

Anyway, I can just imagine how all this could be easy and fluid using CLAP.
And it seems a lot of devs prefer clap to vst3 : I'm not a dev but it's not only on this thread that I did read on the difficulty it is to code for vst3. And yes, the format is old and was adopted quite reluctantly by many devs and DAW makers. I mean, the first NI vst3 version was only a couple of years ago...

[defiantnerd]

Like I said, if any of that was actually true, then Universal Audio UADx plugins wouldn't be both massively popular and VST3-only.

UAD offers AU, VST3 and AAX.

https://help.uaudio.com/hc/en-us/articl ... quirements

[jamcat]

Like I said, if any of that was actually true, then Universal Audio UADx plugins wouldn't be both massively popular and VST3-only.

UAD offers AU, VST3 and AAX.

https://help.uaudio.com/hc/en-us/articl ... quirements

The clear context was with regards to VST. Unless you're actually saying you think everyone that's using UADx plugins are using only AU and AAX, which means no Windows users at all except for Pro Tools...

(I mentioned AU and AAX on the previous page, anticipating such pedantry.)