Live 12 or Bitwig 5.1

[30pinsimms]

yes

[apoclypse]

and as yet no one has made any dedicated Bitwig hardware (or to my knowledge commercial sound packs or instruments) as the user base is probably still to small (and may always be, who knows).

Expert Sleepers has a Bitwig version of their ES-8 module with a Bitwig faceplate and comes with Bitwig 8-Track. That's the closest thing to dedicated Bitwig hardware

However, there are an increasing number of hardware controllers that work with Bitwig out of the box. A few years ago, Bitwig was hardly mentioned in various company's marketing, but now it is.

Reliq-Instruments is near to releasing their Reliq controller. It's the most interesting hardware controller I've seen to date. It's a high-end hybrid analog/digital/midi controller. It can function standalone or with a DAW and because the developers are into Bitwig, it's going to have Bitwig integration when shipping... yay! Looking forward to receiving mine!

While interesting Bitwig needs to do a lot more work on their controller api imo to get it to be as nice as something like Bitwig. Waveforms for the sampler instrument on controllers, PR access, etc would be nice. I don't know what juju Ableton did to get all that working at relatively low latency.

Bitwig also needs to stop relying on 3rd party developers (like Moss) to do all the work for them when it comes to hardware integration. I appreciate what Moss has done but some of this stuff should be done by Bitwig themselves imo.

[machinesworking]

And I also don't think we have to discuss that Live is the vastly more used option. Which usually is for a reason.

Actually I think you should, what is your reason why it's more popular?

Because literally that argument, goes towards lowest common denominator. McDonalds is the most popular because it's cheap, and they designed the food to fit the widest pallet, not because it's good food or better than a mom and pop shop.

[Greenstorm33]

I think the reason in this case is mostly that Live is over a decade older than Bitwig, and the latter came into existence well into the age of the modern DAW. A lot more people use Live, so it's a lot more visible and has a lot more resources available, which in turn results in more people using it. Feature-wise Live and Bitwig both fall pretty far to the "interesting creative tools but a lot of jank and/or questionable or missing features" end of the DAW continuum.

[ckoe]

If you have to decide which one to choose then just try the trail version of both. For Bitwig I can very recommend the Polarity Music YouTube channel to see how easy modular electronic music creation can be.

[pdxindy]

It's a unique bit of gear. At least I haven't seen anything like it. It fits my setup of hardware and software and modular and it's a bonus that it has Bitwig integration.

Closest thing I had seen was the oxi one (and I did get that on kickstarter!) it also has a eurorack pipe, but the reliq looks next level…

The Oxi One doesn't have the analog mixer part. Of course it is half the price of the Reliq.

Reliq is a fully analog 16x16 matrix mixer that can be sequenced. So for example audio input 1 can be routed to audio output 1 and then at bar 5 it switches to output 2 and that switching is clickless.

That plus the Reliq sequencer has 16 polyphonic tracks, and a 16x16 Clip Launcher plus 32 CV outs. I can hook my Linnstrument up to it and it records MPE. And with the big screen, there is a full piano roll for editing. Each track can have up to 128 Clips and each Clip can have up to 512 steps plus Clip follow actions.

It can be standalone or integrate with a DAW. It happens to fit my setup about perfectly. It aint cheap, but the early adopter discount was significant.

[Artie Fichelle]

Comping and midi stuff, and Bitwig will fly.

[gulugulufish]

I'm a Bitwig user, but watching Bitwig production videos and then watching Ableton production videos is like night and day. Ableton users are FAST, even with Bitwig's remappable keyboard shortcuts and gestures, I rarely see bitwig users able to move at the speed that ableton experts are able to move. I can't really place why that is, maybe it's in illusion of not knowing the other, but things feel a bit sticky in Bitwig, it might be that the Ableton community has sort of built up a set of workflow best practices and everyone has followed suit, it's impressive to watch. I haven't really used much of Ableton myself, but I watch a lot of videos on it because I find a lot of parallels between the DAWs and get ideas from the Ableton community. I ended up adding new Bitwig shortcuts just to be able to do these things, like mapping 0 to disable clips/tracks (Ableton users use this all the time, and it seems handy).

If I think ableton looks smoother/faster/sleeker, why did I choose bitwig (and trust me, I strongly considered Ableton at first)? I simply like underdog DAWs, I like making music I haven't really heard, I don't care about access to "industry standard" stock devices. I'm always looking for that little corner that lets me find something a little bit different or hear something new, hence my daws before this were buzz, renoise, and energyXT. I LOVE the device view visuals of bitwig and when I look at ableton my eyes get confused on what is happening with the signal flow. The modulation system is incredible, yeah, automation editing is a bit clunky sometimes but modulation is sort of like an extension of automation that makes up for it IMO. The Audio editing in bitwig is fantastic once you get fast with it and understand it's model, I can slice dice stretch, mix and match different samples, apply stretch algos, draw formant envelopes, batch fadeouts on audio events, apply operators, all within a single clip. I prefer to work with audio within single clips, in Ableton, if you slice things, the only option is to really slice on the arranger view and place your hits that way (or use offsets, or simpler). I understand why that might be desirable to some (and you can still do this in bitwig when you need to), but I prefer to use clips to block out each phrase of audio so things aren't all scattered about the timeline. If I need to see the timing relationship between sample hits in more detail, I've been starting to mess with layered audio editing, another great feature!

[BBFG#]

I've tried Ableton three different times thinking I was missing something. Each time I end up deciding I just don't get along with it and sell it again. Can't tell you specifically why, but I just don't. I understand that others do and that's fine. I don't think comparing a person's ease or lack of to using specific software has much to do with the software itself. I personally can get faster results from Bitwig though.

[syntonica]

I've tried Ableton three different times thinking I was missing something. Each time I end up deciding I just don't get along with it and sell it again. Can't tell you specifically why, but I just don't. I understand that others do and that's fine. I don't think comparing a person's ease or lack of to using specific software has much to do with the software itself. I personally can get faster results from Bitwig though.

There really is no "one-size-fits-all" DAW, same as any other software really. Different programs are designed by different minds. It's just a matter of finding the program, i.e, DAW, that works most closely like your own brain.

As a side note, I really hate software that thinks it can train your brain to follow its paradigm rather than allow you to adjust it to fit yours. This has become very prevalent in the Adore world, unfortunately. My brain has always worked differently due to the autisms, and it hates hates hates others telling it how it's supposed to work.

[pdxindy]

I'm a Bitwig user, but watching Bitwig production videos and then watching Ableton production videos is like night and day. Ableton users are FAST, even with Bitwig's remappable keyboard shortcuts and gestures, I rarely see bitwig users able to move at the speed that ableton experts are able to move.

The only Ableton videos I've watched are Push videos. The ones I've watched are designed to make Push look fast. The sounds are already picked out and setup and it makes it seem speedy. But there is no sound design or hunting through presets or changing direction or mistakes like what happens when it's real life and not a scripted/rehearsed video.

For Bitwig videos, I've watched a greater variety (Polarity, Taches, and others) and I don't recall watching ones that are designed to make the process seem fast. Dave from Bitwig makes videos that are slow leisurely explorations of features that are like sitting on the porch with him sipping lemonade on a hot afternoon.

In any case, I know for me, I am going to be the same speed on every DAW when creating a composition. That's because I'm always the slowest factor by far. Maybe I have a bassline that inspired me to make a new project. Then I record a melody to go with it, but I'm not satisfied with it and so I spend 45 minutes recording some variations and maybe a few different sounds. I'm still not satisfied with it so I go out and work in the garden for an hour or two and while I'm there a new melody idea comes to mind so I go back in the studio and record it. Cool... it works!

I don't know about others, but that's my creative process. The speed of the DAW is meaningless. If I knew beforehand exactly what I was going to do, I could do it super fast in Bitwig, Live, Logic or any DAW that I knew well.

When I take a week or a month to complete a new composition to my satisfaction, that has nothing to do with DAW speed and everything to do with my pace and creative capability to get a result I am truly pleased with.

[Funk Dracula]

I'm a Bitwig user, but watching Bitwig production videos and then watching Ableton production videos is like night and day. Ableton users are FAST, even with Bitwig's remappable keyboard shortcuts and gestures, I rarely see bitwig users able to move at the speed that ableton experts are able to move.

This is just a case of Youtubers being Youtubers. The speed at which someone looks like they are using a DAW, is down to the user.

90% of the Bitwig videos I watched to help me learn Bitwig I can run circles around the Youtuber now when it comes to "speed of use," because I am mousing around, clicking on, or selecting from menus at the very least half the shit that they were in the video. Important to note I am not saying I'm "better" than them or more knowledgeable of the program of course, I'm just more experienced at focusing on operating a DAW quickly and what to focus on/master in that regard. If you don't have to menu or click on something, don't. This just comes from my experience as a professional running Pro Tools/Logic for 25 years, 16 hours a day, in a studio/session environment. When it came time for me to learn Bitwig, I have thousands and thousands of hours of "speed DAW operator/robot behavior" embedded into my DNA. I look like a f**king stenographer speed typing in a courtroom when I'm operating Pro Tools in command focus lmao.

There is a shortcut for just about, ya know I think it might almost literally be everything in Bitiwg. I'm actually struggling to think of the things that you can't define a shortcut for?

Everything in the menus, your tools, enabling record, solo, cycle, getting to the track panel to select a track, the device panel to select a device, making the device window appear, disabling the device, getting any panel to appear/hide, getting any browser to open/hide, navigating/selecting things in the browser, navigating around the timeline in arrange. Shit, the last 5.1.6 update they let us shortcut the tempo up/down. It's almost like one of the dev's looked at the tempo and was like "Wait we never allowed for shorcut for that? Woops, we need to add that!" (and I did immediately define tempo up/down as ctrl+shift +/- on numeric keypad haha)

I don't use Ableton, but I have tried it out long ago (whatever version was out in 2012?) I also looked into v11 when I sat down to give either Ableton or Bitiwg a new try after a decade of letting them stew/develop further. I can say, knowing Ableton has pre-defined shorcuts you cannot customize, and things you will never be able to define shorcuts for, there is no earthly chance you can "strictly operate" Ableton faster than Bitwig with that factor considered.

There are some editing tasks Ableton can accomplish faster tho knowing that they added group editing in V11. To be frank tho, both Ableton and Bitwig are severely lacking features for "busy work" tedious audio editing tasks compared to traditional DAWS, but that is not the main use/appeal of either of these two programs anyways.

Cheers

[machinesworking]

To be frank tho, both Ableton and Bitwig are severely lacking features for "busy work" tedious audio editing tasks compared to traditional DAWS, but that is not the main use/appeal of either of these two programs anyways.

The issue I have with both is limited choices in linear arrangement options and editing, at least compared to Logic, Cubase and DP. The initial composing phase is much faster for the most part in Bitwig and Live, and much slower when it comes to mixing and mastering.

Live 12 adds a shit ton of new keyboard shortcuts, so the playing field is a lot more even there, and some really great new instruments. I got suckered back into Live for a collaboration and it is nice, but to be honest for whatever reason I end up liking what I'm writing in Bitwig better. No good reason, it's just a thing. Maybe I just feel more comfortable using underdog DAWs?

[Funk Dracula]

The issue I have with both is limited choices in linear arrangement options and editing, at least compared to Logic, Cubase and DP. The initial composing phase is much faster for the most part in Bitwig and Live, and much slower when it comes to mixing and mastering.

I switched from Logic to Bitwig for my personal composing/producing of electronic music tracks. I still use (and probably always will use?) Pro Tools for engineering/post production/editing work.

I do find Bitwig to not only be fine for ITB mixing/mastering, it actually excels at it do to the modulation possibilities opening the doors for so many more options. Things like the FX Grid have made me take a 2nd, 3rd, 4th glance at any 3rd party plug-in I use because of the modulation and application uses it unlocks for them. You can have regular modulators modulate things on a 3rd party plug-in, but you can also open that plug-in nested inside an FX Grid container and REALLY start making some seemingly impossible things start to happen.

Also the nesting/parallel/selection routing possibilities of any plug-in you own are fantastic for ITB mixing. There are things I can do in Bitwig that are literally impossible to do in other DAWS without having to manually route, opening many instances of, and automate dozens and dozens of plug-in parameters meticulously, and yet with Bitwig these mixing decisions can be implemented in seconds and the mixing decisions move so musically with the program material.

But yeah, for certain tasks/jobs/workflows, especially what I refer to as "busy work" audio editing, both Bitwig and Ableton just ain't the program you should be using. It's 100% okay to reach for a traditional linear DAW for some of the stuff you need to get done. We are spoiled for choice in 2024.

Cheers

[machinesworking]

The issue I have with both is limited choices in linear arrangement options and editing, at least compared to Logic, Cubase and DP. The initial composing phase is much faster for the most part in Bitwig and Live, and much slower when it comes to mixing and mastering.

I switched from Logic to Bitwig for my personal composing/producing of electronic music tracks. I still use (and probably always will use?) Pro Tools for engineering/post production/editing work.

I do find Bitwig to not only be fine for ITB mixing/mastering, it actually excels at it do to the modulation possibilities opening the doors for so many more options. Things like the FX Grid have made me take a 2nd, 3rd, 4th glance at any 3rd party plug-in I use because of the modulation and application uses it unlocks for them. You can have regular modulators modulate things on a 3rd party plug-in, but you can also open that plug-in nested inside an FX Grid container and REALLY start making some seemingly impossible things start to happen.

Also the nesting/parallel/selection routing possibilities of any plug-in you own are fantastic for ITB mixing. There are things I can do in Bitwig that are literally impossible to do in other DAWS without having to manually route, opening many instances of, and automate dozens and dozens of plug-in parameters meticulously, and yet with Bitwig these mixing decisions can be implemented in seconds and the mixing decisions move so musically with the program material.

But yeah, for certain tasks/jobs/workflows, especially what I refer to as "busy work" audio editing, both Bitwig and Ableton just ain't the program you should be using. It's 100% okay to reach for a traditional linear DAW for some of the stuff you need to get done. We are spoiled for choice in 2024.

Cheers

I've never used PT, it was 20K to get into back in the day, but IMO Digital Performer and even Logic are far better at automation for mixing than Bitwig or Live. Linear automation after the song is done, is not fun at all in those DAWs, but in DP and slightly less so in Logic, it's easy. There are a half dozen automation choices for instance.

It's not impossible and yeah the choices for parallel processing in Bitwig are fantastic, I just wish the linear timeline wasn't so limited.