Live 12 or Bitwig 5.1

[Yorrrrrr]

One difference I'm finding about ableton that is a deal breaker is the CPU usage of modulators. Adding 7 msegs (midi shapers) increased CPU use by 10-15%

I guess it's the additional Max for Live layer. However, CPU usage from the modulators have been reduced in latest Live 12 beta currently in testing.

With the standard version, 7 instances of midi shaper gives 34% load with nothing else happening. Can't access the beta with trial account.... Wish I could see if it helps

7 instances of Shaper MIDI modulating 7 instances of Wavetable give 3% CPU usage here (Live 12.0.5b3).

[wilkins_micawber]

Oh, nice, the patch notes should say VASTLY improves ableton live modulator CPU use

[Yorrrrrr]

Even in Live 12.0.1 current release I get 3% CPU usage, same case scenario.

I saw some improvements from the beta, but not VAST. Did a small comparison test: 60x tracks of Wavetable + LFO, Live 12.0.1 = 21-24% CPU, while Live 12.0.5b1 = 14-16% CPU.

[wilkins_micawber]

Hmm, not sure what the deal is then. You have a midi note triggering on all tracks, right?

10% difference is pretty big imo.

[machinesworking]

Indeed. I found Bitwig UX to be bad overall. Weird thing.

When talking about keyboard shortcuts I was saying Bitwig is better. D for the device submenu, i for information, b for browsing, everything you would use all the time is logically laid out with usually a single keyboard shortcut. B for the browser is a lot different than alt command/control b. I feel the same way about nested devices in Bitwig, it's just more intuitive. Where Live beats it is in the new browser VS Bitwigs new browser, and track routing is much more intuitive in Live. I had to look online to figure out how to set up a multi instrument in Bitwig, it's dead easy in Live.

[xbitz]

btw shaper this Bitwig guy is also doing good for other plugin developers; the MSEG editors of the KHS plugins have just been updated (marc21)

no needs popup window opening anymore

khs.gif

https://kilohearts.com/blog/software-update-2-2-0

[apoclypse]

Indeed. I found Bitwig UX to be bad overall. Weird thing.

When talking about keyboard shortcuts I was saying Bitwig is better. D for the device submenu, i for information, b for browsing, everything you would use all the time is logically laid out with usually a single keyboard shortcut. B for the browser is a lot different than alt command/control b. I feel the same way about nested devices in Bitwig, it's just more intuitive. Where Live beats it is in the new browser VS Bitwigs new browser, and track routing is much more intuitive in Live. I had to look online to figure out how to set up a multi instrument in Bitwig, it's dead easy in Live.

I agree about the browser. However setting up a multi in Bitwig is easy and imo much better than Ableton. The only thing about the way Bitwig does it is that it's a little hidden and you have to be shown how to do it. It's not immediately obvious. But just click the double arrow on the plug-in device and choose Add Missing chains and you are pretty much done. That will add all the outputs for the plugin and you can just click on the mixer view to see all the channels. You can then create Inst tracks and point them to the main Inst track.

In Ableton this is far more tedious to do. You have to create an Audio track for all the multi outs manually.

For example if I have Maschine 2. I want to route all my outs from Maschine to separate audio tracks in Ableton. I would need to create 16 separate audio tracks, then manually route each plugin output to each audio track. In Bitwig this is done automatically for you in a chain with one button.

[harddaysnight]

I've trialled Ableton on a few occasions and tend to like it more and more each time. 12 Suite is awesome and jam packed with great stuff.

Bitwig is too, and same situation - I like it more and more each time I use it. Currently doing a rent-to-own through Splice for this as I bounce around DAWs seeking find a home after deciding to scrap S1.

I've tried pretty much all DAWs besides Reason - I don't like subscription models though for anything you don't end up owning, I have a 6mth Reason+ offer available for free but eh. I might try it.

Anyway, for me, Bitwig and Ableton Live 12 are neck and neck, with FL Studio being right there with them - whatever DAW I settle on will be one of those three.

I need to see if Bitwig has a handful of QOL things I like about Ableton - things I didn't realise I liked until last night, ie dragging a sound or whatever into the arranger and it automatically creates the track with the name, and drum kits having the piano roll named with kit pieces rather than notes. And the ability to fold piano roll MIDI so it only shows what you're using.
These little things are handy in Ableton, maybe Bitwig does this too. Need to check later.

I noticed I was loving a lot of modulation stuff in Ableton last night, and I know Bitwig excels at that, so it's something I should explore there and see what I like more. It really helps provide movement to a song so I definitely need to dig into that.

Need to see if FL Studio can also do the above. FL Studio is surprisingly awesome and I can't believe how much it felt like home when I trialled it. They've made a lot of progress with it, especially when it comes to audio recordings.

[Funk Dracula]

I need to see if Bitwig has a handful of QOL things I like about Ableton - things I didn't realise I liked until last night, ie dragging a sound or whatever into the arranger and it automatically creates the track with the name, and drum kits having the piano roll named with kit pieces rather than notes. And the ability to fold piano roll MIDI so it only shows what you're using.
These little things are handy in Ableton, maybe Bitwig does this too. Need to check later.

Bitwig literally does all those things.

Drag an audio file onto the arranger and it'll create an audio track named after that file. You can also drag an audio file to the track area and it will automatically create a track with a sampler isntrument and load that file into the sampler instrument.

There is a drum roll view with the names of the drum pads on it in Bitwig. Also, if you are in the piano roll using an instrument, you can hit F and switch to the drum roll view and it will collapse the piano roll down and only display the notes that exist. This is kinda used by some as a "workaround" for scale quantizing in Bitwig, because you can input the notes of a scale in the piano roll, then drag it before bar 1, then collapse to drum roll view by hitting F and now the only lanes you see/can input notes into are the notes of the scale.

[harddaysnight]

I need to see if Bitwig has a handful of QOL things I like about Ableton - things I didn't realise I liked until last night, ie dragging a sound or whatever into the arranger and it automatically creates the track with the name, and drum kits having the piano roll named with kit pieces rather than notes. And the ability to fold piano roll MIDI so it only shows what you're using.
These little things are handy in Ableton, maybe Bitwig does this too. Need to check later.

Bitwig literally does all those things.

Drag an audio file onto the arranger and it'll create an audio track named after that file. You can also drag an audio file to the track area and it will automatically create a track with a sampler isntrument and load that file into the sampler instrument.

There is a drum roll view with the names of the drum pads on it in Bitwig. Also, if you are in the piano roll using an instrument, you can hit F and switch to the drum roll view and it will collapse the piano roll down and only display the notes that exist. This is kinda used by some as a "workaround" for scale quantizing in Bitwig, because you can input the notes of a scale in the piano roll, then drag it before bar 1, then collapse to drum roll view by hitting F and now the only lanes you see/can input notes into are the notes of the scale.

I figured it would - I'm not at my PC and can't check.
Cheers for the scale tip.

I'll need to write up what I need/want relating to workflow, and run through all of the DAW contenders I like using and see what winds up feeling the best.

My initial thoughts are that FL Studio felt comfortable right away, but I haven't done much in the way of audio editing with it yet. I like the step sequencer but I don't really love having to manually assign everything to the mixer - I understand I can just create a template to sort this out for the most part. Loads of awesome stock plugins.

Bitwig feels more comfortable every time I use it, I haven't ran through and tried to 1:1 all the plugins in Ableton I like to see if there's comparable versions in Bitwig.

My feelings are that there will be - for example, I like Roar (a saturator of sorts), Electric (elec tines/keys), all of Ableton's stock synths (Poli, Bass, Operator, Analog, Drift, Meld, Granulator III, Wavetable..).. they're all killer. Ability to easily modulate most things via the mod matrix in some of them..

My needs are super simple. A mixture of real recordings via mic, elec guitar (Neural Amp Sim for me) and then programmed drums + soft-synths, and mixing tools. Nothing crazy.

Bitwig has a plethora of synths (that I haven't learned enough about), and the Grid can probably replicate whatever I want. Unsure on whether there's anything quite like Roar.

Ableton however has a looper plugin. I play live music for a living - I don't loop, but if I wanted to, I'd like to be able to do it with the same DAW/program I'd been learning.

They both have clip launcher/session view style things but that's not what I mean - I mean stock-standard "looper" plugin that I would set up with a MIDI controller for acoustic guitar/keys (maybe plugins) and vocal loops, to be used on the fly without the laptop in front of me.

I've used Ableton in the past and perfectly set up what I wanted to doing this - completely understand how to use Ableton to do this with the Looper plugin. Can't do this one thing in Bitwig though

I'd be able to if Bitwig offered a "clear all" button for its session view/clip launcher, and also had a way of setting the project tempo by the first loop I record. Can't do that though.. Ableton can't do that in Session View either, as far as I'm aware, but it can do it with the looper plugin.

Obviously, an alternative here is forget looping altogether and get a dedicated physical looper - but I'm not really in love with looping. I just want the option available, and I want it done via the DAW so I can use my soft synths and whatever plugins etc I want.

Plus, I might want to experiment with using backing tracks at some gigs, which I'd also just want done via my DAW.


As a singer/songwriter type that does everything themselves, one thing that both of these - and FL Studio - lacks, is ARA support. ARA is handy as heck for Melodyne and VocAlign. Both of which I use and like. Can still use them without ARA support, but it's annoying.

[machinesworking]

Indeed. I found Bitwig UX to be bad overall. Weird thing.

When talking about keyboard shortcuts I was saying Bitwig is better. D for the device submenu, i for information, b for browsing, everything you would use all the time is logically laid out with usually a single keyboard shortcut. B for the browser is a lot different than alt command/control b. I feel the same way about nested devices in Bitwig, it's just more intuitive. Where Live beats it is in the new browser VS Bitwigs new browser, and track routing is much more intuitive in Live. I had to look online to figure out how to set up a multi instrument in Bitwig, it's dead easy in Live.

I agree about the browser. However setting up a multi in Bitwig is easy and imo much better than Ableton. The only thing about the way Bitwig does it is that it's a little hidden and you have to be shown how to do it. It's not immediately obvious. But just click the double arrow on the plug-in device and choose Add Missing chains and you are pretty much done. That will add all the outputs for the plugin and you can just click on the mixer view to see all the channels. You can then create Inst tracks and point them to the main Inst track.

In Ableton this is far more tedious to do. You have to create an Audio track for all the multi outs manually.

For example if I have Maschine 2. I want to route all my outs from Maschine to separate audio tracks in Ableton. I would need to create 16 separate audio tracks, then manually route each plugin output to each audio track. In Bitwig this is done automatically for you in a chain with one button.

Sure, the point though was live is more intuitive, which is always a trade off with fast once you learn it. I think that's one of the issues with intuitive in general, it makes it easy to dive in right away and get things done, but it gets in the way later with a feature like multi outs when you want it done fast. Then all of a sudden a hidden submenu with multiple choices is far better. It's more of a win in the long run for Bitwig for sure, but the fact it's not that well laid out in the manual is a PITA, luckily there were video tutorials etc.

[harddaysnight]

Indeed. I found Bitwig UX to be bad overall. Weird thing.

When talking about keyboard shortcuts I was saying Bitwig is better. D for the device submenu, i for information, b for browsing, everything you would use all the time is logically laid out with usually a single keyboard shortcut. B for the browser is a lot different than alt command/control b. I feel the same way about nested devices in Bitwig, it's just more intuitive. Where Live beats it is in the new browser VS Bitwigs new browser, and track routing is much more intuitive in Live. I had to look online to figure out how to set up a multi instrument in Bitwig, it's dead easy in Live.

I agree about the browser. However setting up a multi in Bitwig is easy and imo much better than Ableton. The only thing about the way Bitwig does it is that it's a little hidden and you have to be shown how to do it. It's not immediately obvious. But just click the double arrow on the plug-in device and choose Add Missing chains and you are pretty much done. That will add all the outputs for the plugin and you can just click on the mixer view to see all the channels. You can then create Inst tracks and point them to the main Inst track.

I've tried this with a few different plugins, and it never works.

I've got a couple of UJAM beat makers as well as Komplete 14U with Kontakt and a variety of drummers, definitely things that support multi-out.

I set them up in the plugins themselves the way they should - both work in other DAWs, though I had to do it all manually (ie route to drum pieces to the correct outputs etc and save that all in KK, and with UJAM I have to change all pieces to be routed to "individual" as its "master" by default).

I'm trying to get Bitwig to do it the easy way by adding missing chains, but "add missing chains" is greyed out. Does nothing at all, can't be clicked. Right clicking the channel and clicking "add missing chains" does nothing as well.

I must be missing a step somewhere because I have everything working perfectly in other DAWs.

Trying to replicate what I do elsewhere into Bitwig.

[apoclypse]

Indeed. I found Bitwig UX to be bad overall. Weird thing.

When talking about keyboard shortcuts I was saying Bitwig is better. D for the device submenu, i for information, b for browsing, everything you would use all the time is logically laid out with usually a single keyboard shortcut. B for the browser is a lot different than alt command/control b. I feel the same way about nested devices in Bitwig, it's just more intuitive. Where Live beats it is in the new browser VS Bitwigs new browser, and track routing is much more intuitive in Live. I had to look online to figure out how to set up a multi instrument in Bitwig, it's dead easy in Live.

I agree about the browser. However setting up a multi in Bitwig is easy and imo much better than Ableton. The only thing about the way Bitwig does it is that it's a little hidden and you have to be shown how to do it. It's not immediately obvious. But just click the double arrow on the plug-in device and choose Add Missing chains and you are pretty much done. That will add all the outputs for the plugin and you can just click on the mixer view to see all the channels. You can then create Inst tracks and point them to the main Inst track.

In Ableton this is far more tedious to do. You have to create an Audio track for all the multi outs manually.

For example if I have Maschine 2. I want to route all my outs from Maschine to separate audio tracks in Ableton. I would need to create 16 separate audio tracks, then manually route each plugin output to each audio track. In Bitwig this is done automatically for you in a chain with one button.

Sure, the point though was live is more intuitive, which is always a trade off with fast once you learn it. I think that's one of the issues with intuitive in general, it makes it easy to dive in right away and get things done, but it gets in the way later with a feature like multi outs when you want it done fast. Then all of a sudden a hidden submenu with multiple choices is far better. It's more of a win in the long run for Bitwig for sure, but the fact it's not that well laid out in the manual is a PITA, luckily there were video tutorials etc.

I don't know. Having to create an audio track and route each channel out manually one by one doesn't seem that intuitive to me. Other DAWs pretty much handle it very similar to Bitwig. In Logic if I have a multi-instrument I can just click on the little plus sign in the mixer and it will automatically add an out, Bitwig works pretty much the same, just click Add chain. In Studio One click the Outputs menu in the plugin window, check the box in the plugin window with the output it adds the mixer channel, etc. Bitwig handles this very similarly imo.

I mean how easy is it for someone using a multi in Ableton to know that they have to create an audio track, then go to the menu choose the plugin as an input then route the out to the channel? Seems just as unintuitive to me as you are trying to make Bitwig out to be. It's not immediately obvious that's how multi are supposed to work unless you happen to know how Ableton routes plugins.

[apoclypse]

Indeed. I found Bitwig UX to be bad overall. Weird thing.

When talking about keyboard shortcuts I was saying Bitwig is better. D for the device submenu, i for information, b for browsing, everything you would use all the time is logically laid out with usually a single keyboard shortcut. B for the browser is a lot different than alt command/control b. I feel the same way about nested devices in Bitwig, it's just more intuitive. Where Live beats it is in the new browser VS Bitwigs new browser, and track routing is much more intuitive in Live. I had to look online to figure out how to set up a multi instrument in Bitwig, it's dead easy in Live.

I agree about the browser. However setting up a multi in Bitwig is easy and imo much better than Ableton. The only thing about the way Bitwig does it is that it's a little hidden and you have to be shown how to do it. It's not immediately obvious. But just click the double arrow on the plug-in device and choose Add Missing chains and you are pretty much done. That will add all the outputs for the plugin and you can just click on the mixer view to see all the channels. You can then create Inst tracks and point them to the main Inst track.

I've tried this with a few different plugins, and it never works.

I've got a couple of UJAM beat makers as well as Komplete 14U with Kontakt and a variety of drummers, definitely things that support multi-out.

I set them up in the plugins themselves the way they should - both work in other DAWs, though I had to do it all manually (ie route to drum pieces to the correct outputs etc and save that all in KK, and with UJAM I have to change all pieces to be routed to "individual" as its "master" by default).

I'm trying to get Bitwig to do it the easy way by adding missing chains, but "add missing chains" is greyed out. Does nothing at all, can't be clicked. Right clicking the channel and clicking "add missing chains" does nothing as well.

I must be missing a step somewhere because I have everything working perfectly in other DAWs.

Trying to replicate what I do elsewhere into Bitwig.

I'm not sure what's happening on your system. But I'm on a Mac and I have no issues with this. Kontakt, Maschine, MPC, Reason Rack, FLStudio VSti etc all let me add output chains with no issues. All audio is routed out and works as it should.

[machinesworking]

Indeed. I found Bitwig UX to be bad overall. Weird thing.

When talking about keyboard shortcuts I was saying Bitwig is better. D for the device submenu, i for information, b for browsing, everything you would use all the time is logically laid out with usually a single keyboard shortcut. B for the browser is a lot different than alt command/control b. I feel the same way about nested devices in Bitwig, it's just more intuitive. Where Live beats it is in the new browser VS Bitwigs new browser, and track routing is much more intuitive in Live. I had to look online to figure out how to set up a multi instrument in Bitwig, it's dead easy in Live.

I agree about the browser. However setting up a multi in Bitwig is easy and imo much better than Ableton. The only thing about the way Bitwig does it is that it's a little hidden and you have to be shown how to do it. It's not immediately obvious. But just click the double arrow on the plug-in device and choose Add Missing chains and you are pretty much done. That will add all the outputs for the plugin and you can just click on the mixer view to see all the channels. You can then create Inst tracks and point them to the main Inst track.

In Ableton this is far more tedious to do. You have to create an Audio track for all the multi outs manually.

For example if I have Maschine 2. I want to route all my outs from Maschine to separate audio tracks in Ableton. I would need to create 16 separate audio tracks, then manually route each plugin output to each audio track. In Bitwig this is done automatically for you in a chain with one button.

Sure, the point though was live is more intuitive, which is always a trade off with fast once you learn it. I think that's one of the issues with intuitive in general, it makes it easy to dive in right away and get things done, but it gets in the way later with a feature like multi outs when you want it done fast. Then all of a sudden a hidden submenu with multiple choices is far better. It's more of a win in the long run for Bitwig for sure, but the fact it's not that well laid out in the manual is a PITA, luckily there were video tutorials etc.

I don't know. Having to create an audio track and route each channel out manually one by one doesn't seem that intuitive to me. Other DAWs pretty much handle it very similar to Bitwig. In Logic if I have a multi-instrument I can just click on the little plus sign in the mixer and it will automatically add an out, Bitwig works pretty much the same, just click Add chain. In Studio One click the Outputs menu in the plugin window, check the box in the plugin window with the output it adds the mixer channel, etc. Bitwig handles this very similarly imo.

I mean how easy is it for someone using a multi in Ableton to know that they have to create an audio track, then go to the menu choose the plugin as an input then route the out to the channel? Seems just as unintuitive to me as you are trying to make Bitwig out to be. It's not immediately obvious that's how multi are supposed to work unless you happen to know how Ableton routes plugins.

It’s immediately obvious if your background is hardware, it’s a signal chain and bussing approach vs a menu item approach. Plus it is slower the first time but all modern DAWs allow you to save multis as presets or whatever they decide to call them, so unless you need to change routing all the time… I’m 100% in disagreement with you on this, I never gave routing one thought in Live or DP, but in Logic and Bitwig I’m having to come up with what they might call it, and which submenu it’s in etc. There are a couple easily searchable videos on youtube going over it, but I never did find it in the manual, I would count that as unintuitive.
Again, I would never say better, Logics take on it is super useful, but damn if they do dick to separate the look of the tracks from the actual instrument, it’s something you have to know or you think you just duplicated the instrument 8-16 times.