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machinesworking wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2024 9:16 pmIt’s immediately obvious if your background is hardware

[...]

I would count that as unintuitive.
If you allow a little sidebar:

The word "intuitive" is very unhelpful when talking about user interfaces. It sounds like "intuitive" is an absolute, objective thing. But pretty much nothing in software UIs is "intuitive".

Try saying "familiar" instead and you'll get closer to the truth – and then that also begets the question "familiar to whom?" People with a hardware background? That's not exactly "intuition", is it? It's learned behaviour for a specific group of people who may not have been the main target group when the feature was designed. For users without expectations based on such a background, the implementation may well be better.

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machinesworking wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2024 9:16 pm
It’s immediately obvious if your background is hardware, it’s a signal chain and bussing approach vs a menu item approach. Plus it is slower the first time but all modern DAWs allow you to save multis as presets or whatever they decide to call them, so unless you need to change routing all the time… I’m 100% in disagreement with you on this, I never gave routing one thought in Live or DP, but in Logic and Bitwig I’m having to come up with what they might call it, and which submenu it’s in etc. There are a couple easily searchable videos on youtube going over it, but I never did find it in the manual, I would count that as unintuitive.
Again, I would never say better, Logics take on it is super useful, but damn if they do dick to separate the look of the tracks from the actual instrument, it’s something you have to know or you think you just duplicated the instrument 8-16 times.
Yeah we are not going to agree on this one. You can't save a multi as a preset in Ableton. You can maybe create a template or save a group but if I decide to drop Kontakt or the MPC software in because I feel like I need them, I have to sit there and create audio tracks for each out and manually route them again. There are no presets in live to do that. It's manual every time. The MPC plugin has 32-outs. That's tedious and unintuitive imo.

Bitwig on the other hand can save multi outs as a preset.

Edit: Just to be clear I'm aware you can save groups tracks in your Ableton User Library and use them later. But that's something you would have to do ahead of time. I don't usually know I need a multi until I need a multi.
Studio One // Bitwig // Logic Pro // Ableton // Reason // FLStudio // MPC // Force // Maschine

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Dionysos wrote: Thu Apr 11, 2024 1:38 am
machinesworking wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2024 9:16 pmIt’s immediately obvious if your background is hardware

[...]

I would count that as unintuitive.
If you allow a little sidebar:

The word "intuitive" is very unhelpful when talking about user interfaces. It sounds like "intuitive" is an absolute, objective thing. But pretty much nothing in software UIs is "intuitive".

Try saying "familiar" instead and you'll get closer to the truth – and then that also begets the question "familiar to whom?" People with a hardware background? That's not exactly "intuition", is it? It's learned behaviour for a specific group of people who may not have been the main target group when the feature was designed. For users without expectations based on such a background, the implementation may well be better.
Flatly though Bitwig and Logic, since we've been using these as examples, are actually doing the same thing, it's just a drop down menu, the routing is more or less hidden from the user. So going back to your assertion, no, learning how routing works and how signal chains work, isn't somehow just the same, because it's learned behavior to use a contextual menu or plus sine in the Mixer in the case of Logic, and it's specific to that DAW. There are advantages to the way Bitwig and Logic do it for sure, with Logic a multi instrument with 8 outs creates 8 "multi instruments" for Kontakt for instance, that contain MIDI and audio routing to Kontakt etc. So 9 tracks altogether. The same thing in Digital Performer is 17 tracks, 8 MIDI 8 audio or Aux tracks, and the Kontakt Multi. With DP you also need to use internally 8 busses to route to the audio/aux tracks. All of this is happening in Logic just behind the scenes, and you'll need to know where to go to create the same thing, but packaged for you. I just did this in Logic and it even calls the combined midi and aux out track an aux track. There are advantages like I mentioned, but in no way is it intuitive, it's learned behavior. Compare this to Live which posts audio outs as sources on audio and send tracks, (or for other VSTs that have audio in), it's right there in the in/out selection of every track, that, is what can be called intuitive. I had a hunch without reading the manual that because Live publishes the aux outs from a multi as input sources etc. that I could use an External instrument in Live to host both the MIDI and audio from a Kontakt Multi and I can, that again is intuitive.

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Dionysos wrote: Thu Apr 11, 2024 1:38 am
machinesworking wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2024 9:16 pmIt’s immediately obvious if your background is hardware

[...]

I would count that as unintuitive.
If you allow a little sidebar:

The word "intuitive" is very unhelpful when talking about user interfaces. It sounds like "intuitive" is an absolute, objective thing. But pretty much nothing in software UIs is "intuitive".

Try saying "familiar" instead and you'll get closer to the truth – and then that also begets the question "familiar to whom?" People with a hardware background? That's not exactly "intuition", is it? It's learned behaviour for a specific group of people who may not have been the main target group when the feature was designed. For users without expectations based on such a background, the implementation may well be better.
Well put... I agree that intuitive is the wrong word and that familiar is more apt.

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nevermind...

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audiouser720 wrote: Sat Dec 02, 2023 2:01 pm Please talk me in our out of one if these.

Long story long, I use Pro Tools as a 'tape recorder' and everything always ends up in Pro Tools and that won't change. I however like to use different software for sketching ideas. I basically have everything from Cubase to Ableton to Logic to whatever. I have Ableton Lite which has been perfectly enough for what I need it for and have been using it as a sort of notebook for quick ideas. I record a lot of HW synths and so seamless integration is key. I have recently demoed Bitwig again (did it a couple of years ago and left it there) and my first impression was that it wasn't as intuitive and fast as Live (for creating melodies, putting BEATSSSS together etc), however, there is something about it that makes it very appealing. First of all the way I can integrate hardware and modulate it is absolutely amazing. I hate to say this, and 100% placebo, but it sounds better? I read opinions before stating that Bitwig is much 'tighter' than Live, especially with HW, and this has been my impression too, so this can kinda make it sound 'better' in a way. Live is quite laggy when sending midi out to external hardware, to me at least. But boy I love the new midi features in the new Live version. So muuuuch faster than Betwig. Also the interface of Ableton looks cleaner. There is, however, something inviting about Bitweg.

Anyway, I want to buy into one of these babies as there are good sales going on both sides atm. My fingers are burning to press BUY NOW. Don't expect people to decide on behalf of me. Just to wash my brain and influence me. Betweg or Abelton that is the question
I use Ableton Live 11 and love it, but I also have a top of the line consumer PC, and use MPE hardware/plugins a lot.

I hear a lot about bitwig but, coming from AL11, I couldn't really get into it.

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One thing very clearly in Bitwigs corner with absolutely nothing to debate is that Clips can contain multiple audio files. I have no idea why Live hasn't copied this? every other DAW I know that has even half assed clips has copied Bitwigs ability to do this simple thing.

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plus, the Operators also work on the audio files in the clips
https://youtu.be/N3J_zc8S9qg?t=83

1:25 >
"Where we're workarounding, we don't NEED features." - powermat

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One reason I use Bitwig is because MPE is important to me. The Linnstrument is my main controller for playing. The Linnstrument has a Channel Per Row mode which I make regular use of in a number of ways. Bitwig handles this mode fine cause it records the midi channel for each note. Ableton doesn't record midi channels so the Linnstrument CpR mode doesn't work in Live.

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pdxindy wrote: Sat Apr 13, 2024 6:51 am One reason I use Bitwig is because MPE is important to me. The Linnstrument is my main controller for playing. The Linnstrument has a Channel Per Row mode which I make regular use of in a number of ways. Bitwig handles this mode fine cause it records the midi channel for each note. Ableton doesn't record midi channels so the Linnstrument CpR mode doesn't work in Live.
Yeah I appreciate that as well, especially since the Linnstrument respects the original MPE setup of upper and lower instruments, it's trivial to setup Bitwig to behave like that so you can use the split upper/lower setting in the Linnstrument.

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machinesworking wrote: Thu Apr 11, 2024 5:25 pm
Dionysos wrote: Thu Apr 11, 2024 1:38 am
machinesworking wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2024 9:16 pmIt’s immediately obvious if your background is hardware

[...]

I would count that as unintuitive.
If you allow a little sidebar:

The word "intuitive" is very unhelpful when talking about user interfaces. It sounds like "intuitive" is an absolute, objective thing. But pretty much nothing in software UIs is "intuitive".

Try saying "familiar" instead and you'll get closer to the truth – and then that also begets the question "familiar to whom?" People with a hardware background? That's not exactly "intuition", is it? It's learned behaviour for a specific group of people who may not have been the main target group when the feature was designed. For users without expectations based on such a background, the implementation may well be better.
Flatly though Bitwig and Logic, since we've been using these as examples, are actually doing the same thing, it's just a drop down menu, the routing is more or less hidden from the user. So going back to your assertion, no, learning how routing works and how signal chains work, isn't somehow just the same, because it's learned behavior to use a contextual menu or plus sine in the Mixer in the case of Logic, and it's specific to that DAW. There are advantages to the way Bitwig and Logic do it for sure, with Logic a multi instrument with 8 outs creates 8 "multi instruments" for Kontakt for instance, that contain MIDI and audio routing to Kontakt etc. So 9 tracks altogether. The same thing in Digital Performer is 17 tracks, 8 MIDI 8 audio or Aux tracks, and the Kontakt Multi. With DP you also need to use internally 8 busses to route to the audio/aux tracks. All of this is happening in Logic just behind the scenes, and you'll need to know where to go to create the same thing, but packaged for you. I just did this in Logic and it even calls the combined midi and aux out track an aux track. There are advantages like I mentioned, but in no way is it intuitive, it's learned behavior. Compare this to Live which posts audio outs as sources on audio and send tracks, (or for other VSTs that have audio in), it's right there in the in/out selection of every track, that, is what can be called intuitive. I had a hunch without reading the manual that because Live publishes the aux outs from a multi as input sources etc. that I could use an External instrument in Live to host both the MIDI and audio from a Kontakt Multi and I can, that again is intuitive.

I see posts online of people asking how to do multis in Ableton all the time so your assertion that its somehow more intuitive is true for you but that doesn't make it more intuitive to others. That's the point Dionysos was trying to make. My point was that even if routing in Ableton is more straightforward in practice it requires more work from the user. That is not intuitive to me.

The definition of the work intuitive is:
"using or based on what one feels to be true even without conscious reasoning"

But what one feels to be true really depends on what experience you have. For me it's more intuitive that a DAW would make it easy to add chains. I wouldn't expect to manually be creating audio tracks for every out. That doesn't seem intuitive to me and is far from what I expect to happen with multis.
Studio One // Bitwig // Logic Pro // Ableton // Reason // FLStudio // MPC // Force // Maschine

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I know Bitwig is full of modulation options option, but has Ableton Live 12 added more and similar modulation features that's comparable to Bitwig? Or are there at least some max4live devices that can give ableton users similar modulation features?

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3ptguitarist wrote: Sat Apr 13, 2024 3:03 pm I know Bitwig is full of modulation options option, but has Ableton Live 12 added more and similar modulation features that's comparable to Bitwig? Or are there at least some max4live devices that can give ableton users similar modulation features?
In Bitwig, modulators can be per voice (polyphonic) with Bitwig instruments and some fx and also with some CLAP plugins. Polyphonic modulation is not possible in Live.

Also, the workflow is excellent, both when adding modulation and when editing it in Bitwig. For example, if I add 4-5 modulators to a Bitwig instrument or chain of devices, selecting that instrument or chain, you can see all those modulators in the Inspector along with all the destinations and modulation depths and everything can be adjusted in one place including modulation modifiers. The workflow is slow and clumsy by comparison in Live.

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3ptguitarist wrote: Sat Apr 13, 2024 3:03 pm I know Bitwig is full of modulation options option, but has Ableton Live 12 added more and similar modulation features that's comparable to Bitwig? Or are there at least some max4live devices that can give ableton users similar modulation features?
Ableton does have M4L modulation, but it's nowhere near the same from all accounts I've read.

Firstly, I've read reports of having just a few open on a single isntrument, doing nothing, and pegging CPU's to 30-50%. Secondly, I've read reports of poor/broken PDC causing said M4L modulators timings fall/drift apart.

Modulation is native in Bitwig, offering 43 modulators in the device racks, and whatever modulation schemes you can dream up in the Grid. Modulators can modulate modulators, you can multi-voice things and have separate modulations for separate voices, have modulation sequences, and so on and so on. You are allowed to basically point a modulator to anything, including the ability to have project wide modulators.

In contrast to Ableton reports I've read, here is silly screenshot of 90 MSEGS I opened on a track after launching Bitwig, and Bitwig is still only using 7% CPU in total. The timing of the modulation in Bitwig is audio-rate accurate.
Image

The modulation possibilities in Bitwig allows me to take a second, third, and fourth glance at any plug-in/synth I am contemplating using, because it unlocks all of these new potential applications/uses for them.

Cheers
"music is the best"

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Yep, yep, the native modulation eats up the CPU under Live, but for me, Arturia has saved it, Efx MOTIONS options are already beyond the limit of healthy modulation possibilities

Image
good stuff

and the other is the SSL 360°, so you don't have to throw in mixing-related plugins because AL now has a mixer
"Where we're workarounding, we don't NEED features." - powermat

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