Good morning,
I have already made a post on this subject, but here only one machine is needed, the reason for this new post on the subject.
I compose melodic trance/techno and I'm wondering whether it's better to use samples or buy a drum machine/groovebox.
Could you tell me with your experience which machine I could use to do trance / trance uplifting and melodic techno?
So many choices that it's not easy to choose the right one.
The use of samples is often used for this style of music.
But it obviously has limits.
Why I'm wondering about buying a drum machine/groovebox.
The choice is even more complicated, I only want one machine.
What model would I recommend?
I suspect that learning for an Elektron will be more complex, but not really a problem.
I would just like to have the perfect machine for my musical style.
I was thinking of a Pioneer djs 1000, Analog rythm mk2, Tr8s, Digitakt 2, Syntakt or others?
Where can I only use samples and nothing else?
I will never do live, only home studio use.
Thank you in advance for your answer.
DILEMMA
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- KVRAF
- 3303 posts since 27 Mar, 2010 from UK
Samples in any daw and get a decent midi controller for chords, knobs for parameter changes and midi control. As you say not live and this will be suffice
If on a budget fruity loops will do the job.
Samples and a vst instrument or two you'll be sorted on the get go.
With one external unit if no pc you maybe limiting yourself and if you have yet discovered your personal work flow, taste and kit knowledge I'd say hardware dedicated could be a premature error.
Elektron I couldn't get with but some find them OK or persevere. But it can all be done in the box with a cheap daw to start off with.
If on a budget fruity loops will do the job.
Samples and a vst instrument or two you'll be sorted on the get go.
With one external unit if no pc you maybe limiting yourself and if you have yet discovered your personal work flow, taste and kit knowledge I'd say hardware dedicated could be a premature error.
Elektron I couldn't get with but some find them OK or persevere. But it can all be done in the box with a cheap daw to start off with.
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- KVRAF
- 2263 posts since 6 Aug, 2007
TL;DR: my recommendation: MPC Live 2
I say this as a total Elektron fanboy:
If you can TRULY only have one machine, I would personally recommend looking into a box that can do it all—my preference would be an MPC, either One+ or Live 2. Maschine+ could also be a good option, but I would take an MPC over Maschine any day of the week. You get best-in-class samplers, high polyphony, lots of content packs if you're into that kind of thing, decent sequencing, synths, and even some decent mixing/mastering capabilities from the plugins. If you can only have a single box, it's almost a no-brainer. With the MPC Live, you also get a battery and very decent built-in speaker. It's the definition of "one box only" in my eyes.
Out of those you mentioned (I have and adore all of these, FWIW):
- TR8S: awesome drum machine, but its "sampler" capabilities are EXTREMELY limited. It can only load samples from the SD card (no direct sampling) and doing melodic work is a pain because it's really not set up for chromatic playing—you basically have to automate it. Unless you're looking for hardcore limitations specifically, this is not a "one box only" unit.
- Syntakt: excellent, but it is synthesis only. You could definitely make an entire album with it, but IMO the overall palette is a bit limited. I love having one as a 2nd box, it is very capable for both drums and synths, but you will hit a wall pretty quickly with it unless you just REALLY like that "Syntakt sound".
- Analog Rytm: same as the Syntakt basically, but with fewer voices and very basic mono sampling capabilities. Probably a better "one box only" choice than Syntakt IMO. (Rytm has 8 analog/sample voices, while Syntakt has 4 analog and 8 digital voices)
- Digitakt: again, really good box, but of course sampling only. The newer model doubled the track count and added stereo sampling, so it is a HUGE step up, but it's still sampling only, so you have to be okay with that limitation. I like samplers, but I wouldn't make it without synths.
I say this as a total Elektron fanboy:
If you can TRULY only have one machine, I would personally recommend looking into a box that can do it all—my preference would be an MPC, either One+ or Live 2. Maschine+ could also be a good option, but I would take an MPC over Maschine any day of the week. You get best-in-class samplers, high polyphony, lots of content packs if you're into that kind of thing, decent sequencing, synths, and even some decent mixing/mastering capabilities from the plugins. If you can only have a single box, it's almost a no-brainer. With the MPC Live, you also get a battery and very decent built-in speaker. It's the definition of "one box only" in my eyes.
Out of those you mentioned (I have and adore all of these, FWIW):
- TR8S: awesome drum machine, but its "sampler" capabilities are EXTREMELY limited. It can only load samples from the SD card (no direct sampling) and doing melodic work is a pain because it's really not set up for chromatic playing—you basically have to automate it. Unless you're looking for hardcore limitations specifically, this is not a "one box only" unit.
- Syntakt: excellent, but it is synthesis only. You could definitely make an entire album with it, but IMO the overall palette is a bit limited. I love having one as a 2nd box, it is very capable for both drums and synths, but you will hit a wall pretty quickly with it unless you just REALLY like that "Syntakt sound".
- Analog Rytm: same as the Syntakt basically, but with fewer voices and very basic mono sampling capabilities. Probably a better "one box only" choice than Syntakt IMO. (Rytm has 8 analog/sample voices, while Syntakt has 4 analog and 8 digital voices)
- Digitakt: again, really good box, but of course sampling only. The newer model doubled the track count and added stereo sampling, so it is a HUGE step up, but it's still sampling only, so you have to be okay with that limitation. I like samplers, but I wouldn't make it without synths.
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- KVRAF
- 12243 posts since 7 Sep, 2006 from Roseville, CA
If you just want one machine to cover everything, I'd highly suggest the RYTM mk2. It covers analog and sample-based drums, has the excellent step sequencer (which is not difficult to learn), great on-board effects, has a song mode, and the Overbridge software, which allows you full access right in your DAW. If you only need/want samples, then Digitakt is a great alternative because it has many of the same features as the RYTM mk2.
The TR-8S sounds great, but is a bit of a PITA to use sometimes, has a rather weak implementation for loading and using user samples, and has no song mode. It's really designed to be an X0X box that is "played" live, rather than used to build complete songs, so the lack of a song mode is probably fine for techno that you would perform live into your DAW, but TBH it's pretty terrible for trying to build a trance track with builds, rolls, breakdowns, etc.
But, the biggest question to ask yourself is why do you want a drum machine for studio use? If it's because you like the idea of hands-on experience building your drum tracks without using a computer and don't mind the extra steps that go into that workflow (like me), then absolutely do it! But, if you like a more convenient workflow with samples, I'd suggest sticking to software.
Others to consider are the Maschine (hardware controller for the software, Maschine+ (standalone w/software controller option), or AKAI MPC (One, Live, etc. both work as standalone units and as controllers for the included MPC software). They're all sample-based, support internal soft synths and effects, and integrate very nicely with your DAW and eliminate some of the inconveniences of using standalone hardware.
The TR-8S sounds great, but is a bit of a PITA to use sometimes, has a rather weak implementation for loading and using user samples, and has no song mode. It's really designed to be an X0X box that is "played" live, rather than used to build complete songs, so the lack of a song mode is probably fine for techno that you would perform live into your DAW, but TBH it's pretty terrible for trying to build a trance track with builds, rolls, breakdowns, etc.
But, the biggest question to ask yourself is why do you want a drum machine for studio use? If it's because you like the idea of hands-on experience building your drum tracks without using a computer and don't mind the extra steps that go into that workflow (like me), then absolutely do it! But, if you like a more convenient workflow with samples, I'd suggest sticking to software.
Others to consider are the Maschine (hardware controller for the software, Maschine+ (standalone w/software controller option), or AKAI MPC (One, Live, etc. both work as standalone units and as controllers for the included MPC software). They're all sample-based, support internal soft synths and effects, and integrate very nicely with your DAW and eliminate some of the inconveniences of using standalone hardware.
Logic Pro | LUNA Pro | OB-X8 | Prophet 6 | OB-6 | Rev2 | TEO-5 | Pro 3 | SE-1X | Minitaur | Deepmind 12D | Slim Phatty | TR-1000 | Analog RYTM mk2 | Digitakt 2 | TD-3 MO | TD-3 | Maschine+
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- KVRAF
- 12243 posts since 7 Sep, 2006 from Roseville, CA
How funny, typing at the same time and I would have to "+1" everything you said, including also being an Elektron fanboy who also owns all of the OPs considerations, Maschine+ and Mikro, and MPC One (previously owned a Live 2).sockofgold wrote: Thu May 30, 2024 3:55 pm TL;DR: my recommendation: MPC Live 2
I say this as a total Elektron fanboy:
Logic Pro | LUNA Pro | OB-X8 | Prophet 6 | OB-6 | Rev2 | TEO-5 | Pro 3 | SE-1X | Minitaur | Deepmind 12D | Slim Phatty | TR-1000 | Analog RYTM mk2 | Digitakt 2 | TD-3 MO | TD-3 | Maschine+
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- KVRAF
- 2263 posts since 6 Aug, 2007
The last 6 months have been a "trying things out" phase for me, so I'm a little embarrassed to admit I currently have a One, Live 2, and X all in my possession right now.cryophonik wrote: Thu May 30, 2024 4:06 pm How funny, typing at the same time and I would have to "+1" everything you said, including also being an Elektron fanboy who also owns all of the OPs considerations, Maschine+ and Mikro, and MPC One (previously owned a Live 2).
But the X and One will be sold soon enough—the X is great with the 16 D-link knobs, but holy christ is it unmanageably huge! I just don't have the space for that monster.-
- KVRAF
- 12243 posts since 7 Sep, 2006 from Roseville, CA
Yeah, the X looks monstrous and way too huge for my studio! I really liked the Live 2, but I didn't have a use for the speakers and it made it a little too bulky for couch-surfing, so I sold it thinking I'd eventually replace it with a One or Live 1. I ended up buying a One (black version) for a great price a few weeks ago, then found an even better deal on a One Retro edition within hours after buying the black one, so I bought the Retro version the next day and sold the black One the following day! So, I feel your pain!!!sockofgold wrote: Thu May 30, 2024 4:52 pmThe last 6 months have been a "trying things out" phase for me, so I'm a little embarrassed to admit I currently have a One, Live 2, and X all in my possession right now.cryophonik wrote: Thu May 30, 2024 4:06 pm How funny, typing at the same time and I would have to "+1" everything you said, including also being an Elektron fanboy who also owns all of the OPs considerations, Maschine+ and Mikro, and MPC One (previously owned a Live 2).
Logic Pro | LUNA Pro | OB-X8 | Prophet 6 | OB-6 | Rev2 | TEO-5 | Pro 3 | SE-1X | Minitaur | Deepmind 12D | Slim Phatty | TR-1000 | Analog RYTM mk2 | Digitakt 2 | TD-3 MO | TD-3 | Maschine+
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 901 posts since 7 Aug, 2018
Many thanks for your responses and opinions.
Using only samples in a daw with midi controllers would certainly be the solution.
I have read your answers carefully and I will never do Live, so whether it is a tr8s, Elektron, Mpc for home studio use only may perhaps complicate my mode of operation.
Now, if I had to choose between the three, it would most definitely be an Mpc.
I had an Analog rythm mk2 at the time and an Mpc x se (really big, really takes up space, otherwise it's really complete).
I sold the Analog rythm mk2 because I found it a little difficult to use and as a result, I barely used it at 10% of its capacity.
The Mpc is certainly the best choice if hardware equipment.
I asked the question again for the Analog rythm mk2, because if only one machine I had the time to learn it.
But, Mpc may be the choice to follow.
Nobody talked about the Pioneer djs 1000, not an interesting alternative at all?
However, it seems to be a great product and quite advanced and intuitive.
In addition, really used with samples and quite a bit of processing capacity.
Also, the programming seems really intuitive.
The Pioneer djs 1000, not at all a good solution?
It is a complete production station.
Using only samples in a daw with midi controllers would certainly be the solution.
I have read your answers carefully and I will never do Live, so whether it is a tr8s, Elektron, Mpc for home studio use only may perhaps complicate my mode of operation.
Now, if I had to choose between the three, it would most definitely be an Mpc.
I had an Analog rythm mk2 at the time and an Mpc x se (really big, really takes up space, otherwise it's really complete).
I sold the Analog rythm mk2 because I found it a little difficult to use and as a result, I barely used it at 10% of its capacity.
The Mpc is certainly the best choice if hardware equipment.
I asked the question again for the Analog rythm mk2, because if only one machine I had the time to learn it.
But, Mpc may be the choice to follow.
Nobody talked about the Pioneer djs 1000, not an interesting alternative at all?
However, it seems to be a great product and quite advanced and intuitive.
In addition, really used with samples and quite a bit of processing capacity.
Also, the programming seems really intuitive.
The Pioneer djs 1000, not at all a good solution?
It is a complete production station.
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- KVRAF
- 2263 posts since 6 Aug, 2007
Personally, I know nothing about the Pioneer djs 1000, so I really can't comment on it at all, but just a quick glance, it does not seem like an "all in one" box like you're looking for.
If neither the Elektron nor the MPC workflow worked for you, you may have a hard time finding what you want, to be honest. Most people will click with at least one of their workflows. Although it may be worth giving the Elektron world another shot—the workflow really isn't that complicated. There's an initial learning curve, but once you get it, it becomes VERY intuitive and it's universal across all of their machines, which is nice.
There's still Maschine, if you haven't tried that. Or if you want to get more niche, you could look into Synthstrom Deluge or Polyend Play+. I haven't tried either myself, but they are both generally pretty well-regarded.
You will probably never find the perfect solution. At some point, you just have to accept that they are all incredibly capable machines and just pick one to focus on for a couple months—if it doesn't work, sell it and try another. Any of the options listed are more than capable of any kind of dance music. Try to focus more on a what a machine CAN do than what it cannot do (i.e. avoid the "grass is greener" syndrome).
If neither the Elektron nor the MPC workflow worked for you, you may have a hard time finding what you want, to be honest. Most people will click with at least one of their workflows. Although it may be worth giving the Elektron world another shot—the workflow really isn't that complicated. There's an initial learning curve, but once you get it, it becomes VERY intuitive and it's universal across all of their machines, which is nice.
There's still Maschine, if you haven't tried that. Or if you want to get more niche, you could look into Synthstrom Deluge or Polyend Play+. I haven't tried either myself, but they are both generally pretty well-regarded.
You will probably never find the perfect solution. At some point, you just have to accept that they are all incredibly capable machines and just pick one to focus on for a couple months—if it doesn't work, sell it and try another. Any of the options listed are more than capable of any kind of dance music. Try to focus more on a what a machine CAN do than what it cannot do (i.e. avoid the "grass is greener" syndrome).
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 901 posts since 7 Aug, 2018
Thank you for your reply.
I preferred the workflow of the MPC compared to the Elektron.
I really enjoyed the Analog rythm mk2, but I still found it a lot of manipulation to get the quintessence of this machine.
For my part, I spent more time researching and trying to program than making music.
Now the sound of the Analog rhythm mk2 is a must, really great.
The why too, I asked myself the question of the Syntakt (part of the Analog rythm mk2), but which will perhaps be more limiting in fact.
To another extent, Digitakt 2 offers some really good developments that penalize the workflow less.
I wonder, the best workflow for sample manipulation, Mpc or Digitakt 2?
Concerning Maschine, already tried and does not suit me.
Obviously perfect does not exist, despite everything, certain machines are more adapted to a workflow, more efficient use, where more music than programming is done.
Too much programming destroys creativity.
I preferred the workflow of the MPC compared to the Elektron.
I really enjoyed the Analog rythm mk2, but I still found it a lot of manipulation to get the quintessence of this machine.
For my part, I spent more time researching and trying to program than making music.
Now the sound of the Analog rhythm mk2 is a must, really great.
The why too, I asked myself the question of the Syntakt (part of the Analog rythm mk2), but which will perhaps be more limiting in fact.
To another extent, Digitakt 2 offers some really good developments that penalize the workflow less.
I wonder, the best workflow for sample manipulation, Mpc or Digitakt 2?
Concerning Maschine, already tried and does not suit me.
Obviously perfect does not exist, despite everything, certain machines are more adapted to a workflow, more efficient use, where more music than programming is done.
Too much programming destroys creativity.
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- KVRist
- 296 posts since 8 Mar, 2003 from Boston, MA
I’d highly recommend the Roland MC-707. It really can do it all. I’ve had MPC Live 2, have all of the Elektrons, but the speed of pumping out tracks whether sample-based or synthesis, is unmatched in any other groove box. It certainly has its limitations in length of samples (looper limited to 63 seconds, and total of 12 min mono / 6 min stereo), but it’s plenty for track production. It comes with thousands of sounds, has a ton of FX, high polyphony, and even a highly usable performance FX (scatter) tool. Another all in one from Roland with a different workflow is the Verselab MV-1
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- KVRian
- 890 posts since 9 May, 2005
Had MPC Live... and now have the MPC X SE.
MPC X is large...
If you're editing samples, the Extra Q-Link knobs are extremely helpful (as are the additional buttons).
Didn't realize just how much... until importing my own drum sample libraries.
Quick/easy/precise... it's been far less tedious than doing the same on MPC Live or computer/DAW.
Wish I would have gotten the MPC X sooner.
MPC X is large...
If you're editing samples, the Extra Q-Link knobs are extremely helpful (as are the additional buttons).
Didn't realize just how much... until importing my own drum sample libraries.
Quick/easy/precise... it's been far less tedious than doing the same on MPC Live or computer/DAW.
Wish I would have gotten the MPC X sooner.
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- KVRian
- 890 posts since 9 May, 2005
MC-707 offers great bang-for-the-buck.
Zen-Core engine covers a lot of ground.
Zen-Core engine covers a lot of ground.
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- KVRAF
- 2263 posts since 6 Aug, 2007
MC-707 is nice, although I have 2 major complaints that stop me from really ever using mine:
- Editing any sounds is a huge pain—I don't mind starting from presets, but I always want to tweak them, and that tiny little screen + 4 knobs makes it such a chore to do anything with sounds. It's a shame, too. It's a really deep synth and a totally decent sampling engine.
- Totally subjective, but I really don't like the modern digital Roland sound. It just sounds very "plasticky" and very digital (in a bad way) to me, and everything in this box has that sound.
But, the clip-based sequencer and hands-on controls for every track are super nice. I think it's overpriced for what it is, though. I agree it's worth looking at if OP hasn't yet.
- Editing any sounds is a huge pain—I don't mind starting from presets, but I always want to tweak them, and that tiny little screen + 4 knobs makes it such a chore to do anything with sounds. It's a shame, too. It's a really deep synth and a totally decent sampling engine.
- Totally subjective, but I really don't like the modern digital Roland sound. It just sounds very "plasticky" and very digital (in a bad way) to me, and everything in this box has that sound.
But, the clip-based sequencer and hands-on controls for every track are super nice. I think it's overpriced for what it is, though. I agree it's worth looking at if OP hasn't yet.