How to find that last 10-15% 'commercial' sound fully ITB?

[Scotty]

I've personally concluded that if the most interesting element of a recording is a touch of silk on the top end and some enhanced detail due to some subtle saturation in the gain stage then the music must be pretty damn boring.

With analog hardware we are hearing very subtle differences relative to digital on board processing and ascribing the word "better" to the experience. This is questionable. The younger generation does not have the embedded experience of growing up in the pre digital age. What we we are doing with this hardware preoccupation, and at great cost, is recreating the limitations of the tools of yesteryear. It is nostalgia masquerading as superiority. I am guilty as charged. A chunky chassis with glowing VU meters makes the sound weighty just by looking at the gear. I do have my share of outboard gear and classic hardware here.

A lot of the choice audio tools from the golden years of the 60s and 70s are inherently noisy and have relatively high total harmonic distortion. Improving signal to noise ratios and thd was considered progress. When I hear an emotive vocal wrapped in a reverb that isn't competing with hiss induced by cables, noisy circuits and unintended dirt, that to me progress. I can digitally add dirt, noise and saturation to whatever parts of the instrumentation that I want. I can digitally shape the aesthetic if that is what I am going for and yes it can sound great.

Increasingly, I bypass the onboard compressors of my channel strips especially on more exposed parts like finger picked guitars and vocals. I can better dial in the settings of the digital processors because they are more fully featured. I can make those instruments speak with more deliberate intention.

It is highly doubtful that our preoccupation with analog gear translates to the newer audience, especially when youtube and spotify are the major distribution channels for music in 2024. Hardware is sexy. Human perception is easily manipulated (marketing) and auditory memory is extremely short. I am not selling my hardware but I am not fooled by it either.

Everyone should do themselves but f**k anyone that tells some kid that their work isn't of professional quality because they don't have a Manly Vari Mu compressor in their rack. I have no tolerance for that kind of elitism.

[EfreetiSultan]

So in other words, you expect me to namedrop 100 artists, where they got their mixes done, where they got their masters done, what equipment was used etc etc etc.

Well, that's the claim you made. Is that a problem?

Instead of you, who claim otherwise, offer one single artist that indeed does everything itb?

Please stop lying.

Unfortunately you are more interested in argumentative discussion than actually being realistic.

Asking for proof isnt argumentative discussion. Im not even having a discussion, Im just explaining over and over again that Im asking for proof, because you keep making shit up to avoid having to do so.

And it would be almost 2 hours of work for me to do what you ask me to do. And for what? It would be MUCH easier for you to simply show ONE artist that does it all itb from the top 100 billboard than me showing you the 99 that don't.

So there's only 99 that dont?

And I simply will not take 2 hours out of my day to prove to you something

but you said ' sure i can do that', so why the change of heart?

you already know is true.

And everyone round here, including me, is supposed to believe that I know it because you say so, I presume? Like the rest of your unproven argument?
I kinda get the feeling this is a weird variety of projection, that you're desparate for me to know it because you dont.

I mean its pretty clear by now that you dont know its true, that's why you're avoiding proving it.

You're just playing games for whatever reason I'm not really understanding. But since you expect me to prove to you that all of billboard 100 does nothing strictly itb, and the fact that that would take me 2 hours to do, I will not do that.
So if that means to you that I CAN'T, so be it. I really don't care. And if that means to you that you've WON, then so be it, I really don't care. Good job! You've won! Hope it made your day.

[jethrobull]

I've personally concluded that if the most interesting element of a recording is a touch of silk on the top end and some enhanced detail due to some subtle saturation in the gain stage then the music must be pretty damn boring.

With analog hardware we are hearing very subtle differences relative to digital on board processing and ascribing the word "better" to the experience. This is questionable. The younger generation does not have the embedded experience of growing up in the pre digital age. What we we are doing with this hardware preoccupation, and at great cost, is recreating the limitations of the tools of yesteryear. It is nostalgia masquerading as superiority. I am guilty as charged. A chunky chassis with glowing VU meters makes the sound weighty just by looking at the gear. I do have my share of outboard gear and classic hardware here.

A lot of the choice audio tools from the golden years of the 60s and 70s are inherently noisy and have relatively high total harmonic distortion. Improving signal to noise ratios and thc was considered progress. When I hear an emotive vocal wrapped in a reverb that isn't competing with hiss induced by cables, noisy circuits and unintended dirt, that to me progress. I can digitally add dirt, noise and saturation to whatever parts of the instrumentation that I want. I can digitally shape the aesthetic if that is what I am going for and yes it can sound great.

Increasingly, I bypass the onboard compressors of my channel strips especially on more exposed parts like finger picked guitars and vocals. I can better dial in the settings of the digital processors because they are more fully featured. I can make those instruments speak with more deliberate intention.

It is highly doubtful that our preoccupation with analog gear translates to the newer audience, especially when youtube and spotify are the major distribution channels for music in 2024. Hardware is sexy. Human perception is easily manipulated (marketing) and auditory memory is extremely short. I am not selling my hardware but I am not fooled by it either.

Everyone should do themselves but f**k anyone that tells some kid that their work isn't of professional quality because they don't have a Manly Vari Mu compressor in their rack. I have no tolerance for that kind of elitism.

Word!

[whyterabbyt]

You're just playing games for whatever reason I'm not really understanding.

You made a claim, I asked you to prove it. Why is that a 'game?' Do you come from a culture where unsubstantiated assertions are to be treated more seriously than substantiated ones?

But since you expect me to prove to you that all of billboard 100 does nothing strictly itb, and the fact that that would take me 2 hours to do, I will not do that.

Of course not. But then, I think we all pretty much knew that all along that you'd look for an out.

So if that means to you that I CAN'T, so be it. I really don't care. And if that means to you that you've WON, then so be it, I really don't care. Good job! You've won! Hope it made your day.

I really dont care. If you had had evidence it would have been interesting, though.

[whyterabbyt]

I've personally concluded that if the most interesting element of a recording is a touch of silk on the top end and some enhanced detail due to some subtle saturation in the gain stage then the music must be pretty damn boring.

With analog hardware we are hearing very subtle differences relative to digital on board processing and ascribing the word "better" to the experience. This is questionable. The younger generation does not have the embedded experience of growing up in the pre digital age. What we we are doing with this hardware preoccupation, and at great cost, is recreating the limitations of the tools of yesteryear. It is nostalgia masquerading as superiority. I am guilty as charged. A chunky chassis with glowing VU meters makes the sound weighty just by looking at the gear. I do have my share of outboard gear and classic hardware here.

A lot of the choice audio tools from the golden years of the 60s and 70s are inherently noisy and have relatively high total harmonic distortion. Improving signal to noise ratios and thc was considered progress. When I hear an emotive vocal wrapped in a reverb that isn't competing with hiss induced by cables, noisy circuits and unintended dirt, that to me progress. I can digitally add dirt, noise and saturation to whatever parts of the instrumentation that I want. I can digitally shape the aesthetic if that is what I am going for and yes it can sound great.

Increasingly, I bypass the onboard compressors of my channel strips especially on more exposed parts like finger picked guitars and vocals. I can better dial in the settings of the digital processors because they are more fully featured. I can make those instruments speak with more deliberate intention.

It is highly doubtful that our preoccupation with analog gear translates to the newer audience, especially when youtube and spotify are the major distribution channels for music in 2024. Hardware is sexy. Human perception is easily manipulated (marketing) and auditory memory is extremely short. I am not selling my hardware but I am not fooled by it either.

Everyone should do themselves but f**k anyone that tells some kid that their work isn't of professional quality because they don't have a Manly Vari Mu compressor in their rack. I have no tolerance for that kind of elitism.

Word!

Indeed.

[legendCNCD]

Everyone should do themselves but f**k anyone that tells some kid that their work isn't of professional quality because they don't have a Manly Vari Mu compressor in their rack. I have no tolerance for that kind of elitism.

This here folks.

[VOODOO U]

I've personally concluded that if the most interesting element of a recording is a touch of silk on the top end and some enhanced detail due to some subtle saturation in the gain stage then the music must be pretty damn boring.

With analog hardware we are hearing very subtle differences relative to digital on board processing

What we we are doing with this hardware preoccupation, and at great cost, is recreating the limitations of the tools of yesteryear. It is nostalgia masquerading as superiority.

A chunky chassis with glowing VU meters makes the sound weighty just by looking at the gear.

A lot of the choice audio tools from the golden years of the 60s and 70s are inherently noisy and have relatively high total harmonic distortion.

I can digitally add dirt, noise and saturation to whatever parts of the instrumentation that I want. I can digitally shape the aesthetic if that is what I am going for and yes it can sound great.

I can better dial in the settings of the digital processors because they are more fully featured. I can make those instruments speak with more deliberate intention.

It is highly doubtful that our preoccupation with analog gear translates to the newer audience,

Hardware is sexy.

Indeed

Indeed??? So now ms./mr do it all in the box knows about hardware gear? You think because you have a DAW with waves plugins that all of a sudden you're a f**king recording engineer?
Well ok, let's go there. You agree with all the *assertions* made by Scotty tissues. I want you to look at the above quotes and prove each one of them. Prove it.

Everyone should do themselves but f**k anyone that tells some kid that their work isn't of professional quality because they don't have a Manly Vari Mu compressor in their rack. I have no tolerance for that kind of elitism.

Awwww, how cute. You're such a sweetheart! Good job attempting to win people over with the affection card.

If you want to sell some kid a lie that they'll get anywhere in the music industry with a recording done entirley ITB you go right ahead and do nobody any favors.
I'd rather tell that kid to bust his ass doing what doesn't come easy because if it's easy - meaning very accessible so a billion laymen can do it - (like making a song all ITB), then you end up getting lost in the shuffle. And let's not kid ourselves, using gear inside as well as outside the box and **aiming for the pros** is NOT EASY.
Any Big Name artist who claims they made it "big" with a laptop writing chiptunes either sucked a lot of hot dogs or daddy had some serious connections. And let's not forget the gangs that bullied their way in (let's not go there).

[zerocrossing]

The Grammy Award winner of best album of the year last year was all done ITB with the help of a UAD Apollo, so I’d say that the software is there. Now you need the talent to use it well.

[zerocrossing]

It’s funny, I listen to a lot of different music from a lot of different time periods, and while the stuff from the 50s through 70s has a certain vibe to it, I definitely don’t think it sounds “better” than good music being made today. Maybe that’s your thing, but it’s stupid to think that everyone feels the same way. A lot of my favorite old music actually sounds pretty crappy, though the music is good enough to overcome it.

[whyterabbyt]

Indeed??? So now ms./mr do it all in the box knows about hardware gear?

Its just one assumption after another with folk like you, isnt it. What an astonishingly lazy kind of thinking. You're not very good at this are you?

So, is it any and all hardware gear you're referring to, or just the stuff I own and have used?

You think because you have a DAW with waves plugins that all of a sudden you're a f**king recording engineer?

Do I? Im quite surprised by that, its not information about my thoughts that I had previously been made aware of. Sounds inherently suspect to me.

Well ok, let's go there.

Where, your fevered imagination? Nah.

I want you to look at the above quotes and prove each one of them.

Im sure you do. Any distraction to cravenly handwave away having to prove your own assertion, right?

[Uncle E]

Yeah let's just stick our heads in the sand to any and all opinions not fitting your world view.....

Sure/why not/who cares/what does it matter/the world keeps turning...

[Uncle E]

Indeed??? So now ms./mr do it all in the box knows about hardware gear? You think because you have a DAW with waves plugins that all of a sudden you're a f**king recording engineer?

I've owned/used a lot of high-end hardware. LA2A, Shadow Hills Mastering Compressor, SSL Bus Compressor, Ampex 350 and 351, Stam Fairchild, Tube Tech LCA 2B, etc. IMO, some of them are still better than their software counterparts but most aren't, unless you believe analog noise adds something to a recording (which it might!).

FWIW, the only analog outboard I had and would like to get again is the Drawmer 1973, and that had more to do with the tactile control than the sound.

[whyterabbyt]

I'd rather tell that kid to bust his ass doing what doesn't come easy because if it's easy - meaning very accessible so a billion laymen can do it - ... then you end up getting lost in the shuffle. And let's not kid ourselves, using gear inside as well as outside the box and **aiming for the pros** is NOT EASY.

wow, great pitch there for 'practice and experience.'


i guess its just a pity you went with 'motherboards dont spread the sound enough' instead.

[elxsound]

Indeed??? So now ms./mr do it all in the box knows about hardware gear? You think because you have a DAW with waves plugins that all of a sudden you're a f**king recording engineer?

I've owned/used a lot of high-end hardware. LA2A, Shadow Hills Mastering Compressor, SSL Bus Compressor, Ampex 350 and 351, Stam Fairchild, Tube Tech LCA 2B, etc. IMO, some of them are still better than their software counterparts but most aren't, unless you believe analog noise adds something to a recording (which it might!).

FWIW, the only analog outboard I had and would like to get again is the Drawmer 1973, and that had more to do with the tactile control than the sound.

Like most of the analog/digital arguments… usually the ones responding about digital tool usage, are the ones with extensive hardware experience.

I probably have the least experience with hardware mixing tools and its been many years since recording in a studio (sitting behind the recording engineer, not the one mixing).

[donkey tugger]

I'd rather tell that kid to bust his ass doing what doesn't come easy because if it's easy - meaning very accessible so a billion laymen can do it - ... then you end up getting lost in the shuffle. And let's not kid ourselves, using gear inside as well as outside the box and **aiming for the pros** is NOT EASY.

wow, great pitch there for 'practice and experience.'


i guess its just a pity you went with 'motherboards dont spread the sound enough' instead.

Well, according to our local visionary, plants are the source of all knowledge. A patch of nettles and a dock leaf in the park have just advised me; "My child, do not be arseing around with them fancy pants hardware units. Your path lies in the way of the plug-ins."