How to find that last 10-15% 'commercial' sound fully ITB?

[zerocrossing]

Indeed??? So now ms./mr do it all in the box knows about hardware gear? You think because you have a DAW with waves plugins that all of a sudden you're a f**king recording engineer?

I've owned/used a lot of high-end hardware. LA2A, Shadow Hills Mastering Compressor, SSL Bus Compressor, Ampex 350 and 351, Stam Fairchild, Tube Tech LCA 2B, etc. IMO, some of them are still better than their software counterparts but most aren't, unless you believe analog noise adds something to a recording (which it might!).

FWIW, the only analog outboard I had and would like to get again is the Drawmer 1973, and that had more to do with the tactile control than the sound.

Like most of the analog/digital arguments… usually the ones responding about digital tool usage, are the ones with extensive hardware experience.

I probably have the least experience with hardware mixing tools and its been many years since recording in a studio (sitting behind the recording engineer, not the one mixing).

Most of us are so old we come from a time when there was basically only hardware and most of it was analog. I’ve spent years working in studios before plugins were even invented.

[VOODOO U]

I've owned/used a lot of high-end hardware. LA2A, Shadow Hills Mastering Compressor, SSL Bus Compressor, Ampex 350 and 351, Stam Fairchild, Tube Tech LCA 2B, etc. IMO, some of them are still better than their software counterparts but most aren't, unless you believe analog noise adds something to a recording (which it might!).

Well analog does add a "colour" but it's personal preference if that's a good thing or not. I love it. Modern recordings sound too clean for my tastes. There's no "rawness" to the sound. That's the best way I can describe it.
Regardless of my tastes, I'd be surprised if any commercial release invested by a legit label (meaning a label that is not John Doe's who happens to be the guitarist in the only band on the "label") was recorded completely ITB.

Any distraction to cravenly handwave away having to prove your own assertion, right?

One finger pointed at others and three right back at yourself.
You're a waste. You've got nothing to show for as far as I'm concerned. You *assert* that "Practice and Experience" can get one to create a professional label ready recording by doing it all ITB and when you get called out on it (the same way you call out others who state their opinions and experiences), you hide behind an obnoxious and hypocritical loopty-loop derail to avoid proving those assertions.
Am I wrong? Then shut the f**k up and write a complete song ITB like I told you to and make it a professional recording ready to compete with the majors. Post up a link and let us decide if it holds.
You can't. And that embarrasses you.
And believe me, if you did do it and proved me wrong, I would tip my hat, admit defeat and have a nice f**king day.

[elxsound]

FFS.

[bmanic]

Anyway, analog/digital has been done to death everywhere. If someone cant make something sound good or professional, its not the tools.

This.

If anybody is absolute 100% proof of this, it's Serban Ghenea. He has been 100% digital (mostly ITB and if he uses outboard gear, it's 100% digital stuff like the SPL Machine Head which has only digital I/O) for over a decade now.

Anybody who thinks you need analogue hardware to produce and mix top tier audio productions only need to google that dude. Look at his catalogue. He is by far THE most indemand mixing guy in the industry right now (and has been so for years). So much so that getting a single track mixed by him will cost you upwards of 10 000$.

It's _never_ been about the tools. This is a 100% skill based industry. Even things like microphones and preamps cost absolute peanuts compared to just a few decades ago. We have stuff like Rode NT1 which is an absolute premium microphone for less than 300$ and pretty much any soundcard on the market has good enough preamps and conversion for completely professional results. The only costly part is having a large enough acoustic space for recording drums and a live band if that's your thing. But even this can be had for peanuts now, compared to before.

Every single "high end" product is only a luxury. It's not necessary at all.

Yes some things are easier to do with analogue hardware, like cascading multiple sources of heavy distortion. You'll have zero aliasing which still in this day an age is a problem with digital audio.. but there are workarounds for this if it's something you absolutely need.

The workflow to get to similar sonic territory is the biggest difference between ITB and OTB processing. You need to think differently but with a trained ear and knowing what you are doing, you can get to the same place. Trying to always do apples vs apples comparisons is silly and pointless. The mission is to arrive at a good production and this can be done with ALL tools, be it digital or analogue.. or hybrid. Heck even a 100% free setup (provided that you source a free computer with a free soundcard) is viable to get into the top 100 charts with a mix that doesn't stand out in a bad way.

The only things that aren't free and never were are time, patience and practice. There are no shortcuts to this. Yet ironically, the people who do not understand this are the ones spending thousands on gear trying to "buy their way past the necessary".. and it never works!

[VOODOO U]

Folks this isn't about analog versus digital. Talking about "outside of the box" doesn't always mean analog. I figured ADATs would have made that clear years ago.
This is about creating a recording entirely ITB and have it compete with the majors. In other words, get that radio ready commercial sound that bedroom musicians think they can get with a laptop and T Racks.

[elxsound]

Folks this isn't about analog versus digital. Talking about "outside of the box" doesn't always mean analog. I figured ADATs would have made that clear years ago.
This is about creating a recording entirely ITB and have it compete with the majors. In other words, get that radio ready commercial sound that bedroom musicians think they can get with a laptop and T Racks.

Its been done and continues to be done. See above for the grammy winning engineer... for an album done in a bedroom.

Check out https://sterling-sound.com/engineer/chris-gehringer/
Mastering engineer who works ITB.

There's plenty more.

You're holding on to something many know is not true. Not an opinion.

It's not even a secret. Engineers are sharing the workflows. Some share it for free and some behind paywalled sites (I mentioned before MWTM and Pure Mix).

[legendCNCD]

Most of us are so old we come from a time when there was basically only hardware and most of it was analog. I’ve spent years working in studios before plugins were even invented.

Yeah and I do not miss the HISS at all, although sometimes its fun to put dynamic hiss to some elements. I don't miss the track being played back to record it via the hardware. I don't miss MIDI drifting on because the machine was later in the chain, and had to rechain etc. I have still one recording where the arp from JX3P was needed to retrigger every 8th pattern, because it drifted.

I really do not miss analog or early digital machines much at all ITB ftw.

I do like some analog/digital outboard hardware though.
EDIT: I do not miss the amount of cables collecting dust into them.

[whyterabbyt]

One finger pointed at others and three right back at yourself.

Sophisticated debating skills there, well done.

You've got nothing to show for as far as I'm concerned.

"One finger pointed at others and three right back at yourself" as you would say.

You *assert* that "Practice and Experience" can get one to create a professional label ready recording by doing it all ITB

Please feel free to prove that one can create a professional label ready recording without sufficient practice or experience. Dont even worry abut the ITB thing because I didnt actually assert that bit, that's just yet another lie on your part. Something you're doing more frequently as you go on, I notice.

and when you get called out on it (the same way you call out others who state their opinions and experiences), you hide behind an obnoxious and hypocritical loopty-loop derail to avoid proving those assertions.

What, exactly the same thing as you're doing? Im shocked. I mean obviously that's not just projection on your part, right?

I mean you can quote where I was asked to provide proof of my actual assertion, right, not just the repeated series of things you make up?

Tell you what, lets do this in order of who was asked to prove something first. On you go, wee man...

Am I wrong?

Obviously.

Then shut the f**k up and write a complete song ITB like I told you to and make it a professional recording ready to compete with the majors. Post up a link and let us decide if it holds.

Erm, no thanks.

Just as a reminder, since you're clearly not that good at this debate thing - its not up to me to disprove your assertion (at your childish demand or not), its up to you to prove it.

And believe me, if you did do it and proved me wrong, I would tip my hat, admit defeat and have a nice f**king day.

Nope, I dont believe that for a second, you're a proven liar.

[bmanic]

Folks this isn't about analog versus digital. Talking about "outside of the box" doesn't always mean analog. I figured ADATs would have made that clear years ago.
This is about creating a recording entirely ITB and have it compete with the majors. In other words, get that radio ready commercial sound that bedroom musicians think they can get with a laptop and T Racks.

Bullshit. Now you are moving the goalposts.

The simple fact, that has already been said over and over, but you refuse to listen is this: skill

tools. matter. not

/end of discussion

[whyterabbyt]

Folks this isn't about analog versus digital. Talking about "outside of the box" doesn't always mean analog. I figured ADATs would have made that clear years ago.
This is about creating a recording entirely ITB and have it compete with the majors. In other words, get that radio ready commercial sound that bedroom musicians think they can get with a laptop and T Racks.

Bullshit. Now you are moving the goalposts.

The simple fact, that has already been said over and over, but you refuse to listen is this: skill

tools. matter. not

/end of discussion

well, obviously that's true in every other field of human endeavour... all the ones that dont need to compensate for motherboards not spreading the audio enough.
but there's a very compelling argument (ie "its true because i say its true") that this doesnt apply to audio recording and mixing, where its unassailable (aka "nyaaah, i dont wanna prove it, and you suck ") that any fuckwit can compensate for not having best-in-class levels of skill, knowledge and application just by plugging in a hardware mixer or EQ or compressor.

I mean its pretty well known that if any of the tracks in the top 100 were done ITB, then they wouldnt be in the top 100. Even the most skilled and talented producers in the world couldnt manage to get into the top 100 working ITB, they're actually just not skilled enough to do that.
Its that motherboard, man, that damned motherboard....

[EfreetiSultan]

You're just playing games for whatever reason I'm not really understanding.

You made a claim, I asked you to prove it. Why is that a 'game?' Do you come from a culture where unsubstantiated assertions are to be treated more seriously than substantiated ones?

But since you expect me to prove to you that all of billboard 100 does nothing strictly itb, and the fact that that would take me 2 hours to do, I will not do that.

Of course not. But then, I think we all pretty much knew that all along that you'd look for an out.

So if that means to you that I CAN'T, so be it. I really don't care. And if that means to you that you've WON, then so be it, I really don't care. Good job! You've won! Hope it made your day.

I really dont care. If you had had evidence it would have been interesting, though.

As I've stated now a few times, I've got no interest in proving that to you as it would simply take up way too much of my time for zero benefit. And it's a very unreasonable and unrealistic request to list every single top 100 billboard track, and who mixed and mastered it etc - as I've again also stated.
Just so I can win an argument with a stranger online? No thanks. But ofc that to you means I'm "looking for an out" or whatever. But I don't care.

I've already handed that win over to you, congratulations again! Feel free to think whatever you wish have a good day!

[whyterabbyt]

Feel free to think whatever you wish

well, obviously I do.

bye now, thanks for playing, moving the goaposts, and then running away when the other team got the ball.

[EfreetiSultan]

Feel free to think whatever you wish

well, obviously I do.

bye now, thanks for playing, moving the goaposts, and then running away when the other team got the ball.

Haha. See, I told you you were playing games. And I intend NOT to play your games. Youve already won. Your game, your rules, yes - you win! I dont wanna play with you
I havent moved any goalposts though, those remain exactly the same.
Anyway. I really dont want to speak to you anymore, Im sure youre a great person though.
Feel free to claim im running away, looking for an out, or whatever else you might say. Thats cool! I just hope you can accept the win with a little dignity, no need to continue to reply to me anymore. That way I dont have to reply back again to your replies. Ok? Youve won! Again I wish you a glorious day!

[whyterabbyt]

Anyway. I really dont want to speak to you anymore

Feel free to stop whenever you want.

That way I dont have to reply back again to your replies.

Oh, you know quite well you never had to; that's been entirely your choice all along...

See, I told you you were playing games.

Well, of course you said that. Its much easier than having to prove your assertion, isnt it?

[EfreetiSultan]

Anyway. I really dont want to speak to you anymore

Feel free to stop whenever you want.

That way I dont have to reply back again to your replies.

Oh, you know quite well you never had to; that's been entirely your choice all along...

See, I told you you were playing games.

Well, of course you said that. Its much easier than having to prove your assertion, isnt it?

Do you have some sort of fetish for this? Winning online arguments? I really dont get it. Call me stupid if you want. I dont know how many times I have to say I dont WANT to prove that to you since it would take too much of my time to do so. Its not realistic. And Ive already conceded the win to you.
Yet you keep going.. For what? What is your endgame here? Ive asked you that before aswell, and I keep getting confused by you. Can we stop here please? Youve won, youre amazing, youre the best, Im puny, can you please let it be?
What more do you want from me? Please dont answer that.