Why does my Kick get sucked in? even with sidechain? (optional: Snare)

[Caine123]

hi guys,

im wondering with 2 tracks and wonder if someone has maybe some similiar experiences and maybe good tips?
normally to have a kick punch through i have no problems, my steps:

1. solo the kick, eq, comp, saturation, maybe some low end boost with mbassador, rbass or something
2. sometimes if i think something is missing i layer a 2nd kick and sidechain it to the main kick so it doesnt clash with it.
3. then i put them to a Drum Bus mostly
4. i sidechain this drum bus to everything having some bigger low end e.g. low drone, pad, bass etc.

normally thats doing the trick or am i missing something?

Additionally to the above points.
thats how i proceed with snares as well but i put them to a Snare Bus then to the drum bus mostly but i dont sidechain snares normally, guess this is the mistake? cause in some tracks i got a snare (snare bus) sounding really fat/punchy and im like, yes this is it, and in the full mix it gets unpunchy. would you do the above just with the snare? so mostly either/and eq the other elements with the fundamental of the snare and sidechain these elements?

thanks

[bmanic]

Could be a simple case of something else being in opposite phase to the kick and/or snare's main "punch" frequencies. Have you tried flipping the polarity of other tracks to see which ones collide?

Also a very subtle detail but sometimes worth investigating is to check if the kick or snare is in correct absolute phase. This means that the kicks initial transients first wavefront pushes the speaker out instead of sucking it in. This makes a tiny but sometimes noticeable difference. It's especially noticeable if the kick or snare has a lot of DC offset in it (easily caused by "mojo" plugins or running through outboard gear).

Finally, if polarity flipping doesn't work you can experiment with a 12dB/octave allpass filter to flip specific frequencies around in terms of phase in relation to other elements. Keep in mind that the actual "knock" or "punch" of a kick is usually relatively high up in the bass register so we aren't talking sub frequencies here.

[zerocrossing]

With compressing drums, you have to make sure you have a slow enough attack to let that transient through, but a fast enough release so that it’s not still engaged when the next hit happens. Also, the highs of the drum are what clues your brain to hear the lows, so don’t keep boosting the lows and expect them to stand out more. Find the high frequency that makes the drum pop out.

[ramseysounds]

Use a different kick

[swilow11]

Avoid mixing with soloed tracks. Great sounding kick by itself can turn into flabby mush when the rest of the track is laid on top. Check stuff in solo but mainly in full context.

[TIMT]

If you don't normally have issues with this like you claimed, then whatever elements that are common to these 2 tracks you are having issues with are most likely the ones causing the issue. not the kick and snare itself.

When i get mixes in or consult on tracks where people complain their kick doesn't sound like it hits right against other elements, 9/10 it's usually a too much stereo issue. having completely mono kickdrums and then pads, bass, arps and everything else in stereo with stereo effects on top of that gives the kick nothing to correlate with. "sucking in"to me usually means a mix that lacks a strong phantom centre. which requires mono (proper mono. not summed stereo) or at the very least, very tightly correlated stereo signals. which pretty much no modern sound sources qualify for off the bat. rare i don't come across a multitrack or preset in a project that is not washed out to death from the get go.

If these 2 tracks giving you the issues feature a lot of stereo elements and even stereo bass sounds, pads and such, i would bet it is probably that

[Andreya_Autumn]

Good advice above.


If you're going for the exaggerated EDM swells-type sidechaining it's a bit of a different story. But it sounds like you have a mix where the other elements are continuous and the sidechaining is more of the subtle space-creating type.

In that case I would look at sidechain timings. On a bass instrument, if regular full-band sidechain ducking isn't effective enough, I'd use two sidechaining plugs with different timings. One full-band with fast timings, keyed from the high click of the kick. The other affects the lows only. The timing of this one is a bit more case-by-case, but in effect always slower than the other. Pro-MB can do both in one. Otherwise say FIRcomp on the first duty, any dynamic EQ with time controls on the second.

Kick and Bass can both play subs/lows, but *only one at a time* puts those lows out to the mix! That's what the low frequency SC is for, getting the timings of that low end space-sharing right.

On non-bass buses you only need the fast one (they shouldn't have any frequencies that can clash with the low bass-sub, if they do filter it out. This fast one is there because as zerocrossing said, the initial transient needs to come through clearly. Put all your treble percussion in a bus and add that fast sidechain to it too. If you have reverb on your drums, put that fast one on the reverb return too. And also on exactly everything else except like, leads. Say, vocals or such.

And I 100% agree with the above. Mono kick and snare helps. Mono the subs/lows of your bass also, but not necessarily the mids etc! Click/punch in mono, and all the stereo stuff fast-sidechained under it should work.

Snares are basically the same except they shouldn't have any really deep bass. Look at a spectrum analyzer and figure out where the low punch of the snare is. Dynamic EQ-sidechain those frequencies out of all the other buses. Including the Kick if they play together! (Just careful not to affect the low bass). The 2 stage thing can work here too if you have a really bright click on the snare. But quite often the low one is enough, I find. Trackspacer with fast attack, fast-ish release and limited frequency range is good for this.

And indeed, mix in context. You might just be saturating/compressing the drums way too hard.

Good luck!

[Halma]

Avoid mixing with soloed tracks. Great sounding kick by itself can turn into flabby mush when the rest of the track is laid on top. Check stuff in solo but mainly in full context.

This. If single instruments sounds good in solo they don't necessarily have to sound good in a full mix.

[_al_]

Re: Why does my Kick get sucked in? even with sidechain?

thanks

Actually I take back my comment. Doesn't even make sense. Clearly been using shaperbox too long

[simon.a.billington]

Quite possibly their phase is out of alignment.

Try doing something to align the phase. It could be as simple as using a sample delay plugging/setting or a more elaborate version of the same thing like Waves InPhase, or you can go through the tedium or manually moving everything by hand.