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machinesworking wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2024 5:47 am
magog wrote: Sun Jun 16, 2024 9:26 pm
machinesworking wrote: Fri Jun 14, 2024 9:48 pm I just watched the latest webinar where a user goes over using Chunks to load entire Clips with completely new Session clips ands V-Racks that keep the instruments the same for all of them etc.
Ooh this sounds really interesting - is this online anywhere?
The links die after a couple days so watch it soon if you can.

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=76102 ... ef=sharing
Thank you! Watching it now!

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magog wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2024 1:31 pm
machinesworking wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2024 5:47 am
magog wrote: Sun Jun 16, 2024 9:26 pm
machinesworking wrote: Fri Jun 14, 2024 9:48 pm I just watched the latest webinar where a user goes over using Chunks to load entire Clips with completely new Session clips ands V-Racks that keep the instruments the same for all of them etc.
Ooh this sounds really interesting - is this online anywhere?
The links die after a couple days so watch it soon if you can.

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=76102 ... ef=sharing
Thank you! Watching it now!
This is a great webinar. It's a shame that they don't keep these webinars around longer and publicize them more. It made me want to look at DP again, if I ever get into elaborate loop-based live performances.

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magog wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2024 1:31 pm So when you want to rearrange the sections of the song, you have to create it again from scratch, right?
No, DP like some other old school DAWs has multiple ways to rearrange sections of timeline. I mentioned markers as a way to select parts of the song, from there you can snip time, slice in more of the verse etc. etc. Another method is to copy verse, chorus etc. to separate Chunks and drag them into the timeline as you see fit etc.

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I've been playing around with the demo for the last few days. The biggest issue for me, I've found so far, is that audio routing inside the DAW seems incredibly cumbersome. Creating a bus, which is essentially a mixer channel, needs a bundle AND an aux channel. In most DAWs you just need to create an aux/bus channel (in the mixer), keeping things simple and obvious. If you want to set up a combination of several mults and buses, this becomes crazy complex to keep track of.
CrimsonWarlock aka TechnoGremlin, Moved to Reason and Rack Extensions exclusively (from Reaper and VSTs) several years ago.

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machinesworking wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2024 8:03 pm
magog wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2024 1:31 pm So when you want to rearrange the sections of the song, you have to create it again from scratch, right?
No, DP like some other old school DAWs has multiple ways to rearrange sections of timeline. I mentioned markers as a way to select parts of the song, from there you can snip time, slice in more of the verse etc. etc. Another method is to copy verse, chorus etc. to separate Chunks and drag them into the timeline as you see fit etc.
Well, yeah, but I can do that with Logic too. The details are different, but not vastly different. It doesn't take particular advantage of DP's chunks system to drag sections around on a timeline.

What I really want is a DAW that lets me work on each section of a song in isolation without dragging the sections around on a timeline. I feel like DP could be that DAW if they modernized Songs and v-racks.

I don't think there's much of a market for this workflow though, otherwise they would have already done it and also the other DAWs would be doing it too.

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crimsonwarlock wrote: Tue Jun 18, 2024 7:41 am I've been playing around with the demo for the last few days. The biggest issue for me, I've found so far, is that audio routing inside the DAW seems incredibly cumbersome. Creating a bus, which is essentially a mixer channel, needs a bundle AND an aux channel. In most DAWs you just need to create an aux/bus channel (in the mixer), keeping things simple and obvious. If you want to set up a combination of several mults and buses, this becomes crazy complex to keep track of.
I'm confused by your confusion here? In DP busses are already created. You just assign any bus to an aux, send etc. etc. If you want named busses you use the Bundles window, but you do not have to.

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machinesworking wrote: Tue Jun 18, 2024 11:11 pm I'm confused by your confusion here? In DP busses are already created. You just assign any bus to an aux, send etc. etc. If you want named busses you use the Bundles window, but you do not have to.
In Reason, you just create a new mixer channel, and then you can simply route other channels to this new channel to make it a bus, or a pre-fader signal from another mixer channel to make it a mult. There is no need to define buses like DP does (with bundles) to be able to route a channel to an aux, send, or whatever. Also, the naming of these parts in DP, adds to the confusion. In Reason (and most other DAWs I have experience with) a bus or aux is the same thing: a mixer channel that receives signal from other channels. In DP a bus is NOT a mixer channel, it is a routing device to get signals from one channel to another. This 'routing device' is not needed in most other DAWs.

Take this scenario as an example: I have several vocal tracks that I want to go into a bus. Then have mults from that bus to be able to parallel add reverbs, delays, etc. to that group of vocals. Then, I want to send the original bus (the clean vocal group) AND the reverb/delay/etc. mults into another bus, so I can mix the whole vocal setup with one fader. In Reason, I just select the vocal channels and a right-click menu lets me create a bus that instantly routes the selected vocal channels to the newly created bus-channel. I can then right-click the new bus, and add parallel channels as I like. Finally, simply select the original bus and the created parallel channels, and again choose to create a new bus that will, again, automatically route the selected channels to that second bus.

Now do this in DP :scared:

The only DAW I'm aware of that works in the same way as DP, is ProTools. It seems DP copied that way of working with buses.
CrimsonWarlock aka TechnoGremlin, Moved to Reason and Rack Extensions exclusively (from Reaper and VSTs) several years ago.

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crimsonwarlock wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 2:24 am Now do this in DP :scared:

I think this is more you being unfamiliar with DP than it being harder etc. I've got too many DAWs here DP, Logic, Reaper, Bitwig, Live etc. and have never thought routing was a weak point in DP.

Sweetwater separate out busses and aux's, so do plenty of DAWs.
https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/aux-track/
The only DAW I'm aware of that works in the same way as DP, is ProTools. It seems DP copied that way of working with buses.
Pro Tools and DP use hardware mixers as a start, some DAWs like Logic and Reason don't. For me anyway the difference is I can almost never reference the manual when routing in DP, but I have to all the time in DAWs like Bitwig and Logic, because some function like multi out from a VST isn't a routing choice in the mixer but a selection on the track with the plugin or a submenu, or a contextual menu etc.

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machinesworking wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 7:08 am ...never thought routing was a weak point in DP.
I didn't say it is a weak point, I said it is cumbersome.
machinesworking wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 7:08 am Pro Tools and DP use hardware mixers as a start, some DAWs like Logic and Reason don't.
ProTools tries to implement the routing possibilities of a hardware mixer, by using routing objects to connect things. DP seems to do the same. A hardware mixer doesn't route that way. So it's funny you say that Reason don't because Reason is the only DAW that does emulate a full hardware mixer (an SSL 9000 desk to be precise), and uses actual (virtual) cables to route stuff, exactly like with hardware. If you action things from right-click menus, Reason does the plugging for you, but it is all emulating a hardware studio environment.

Mind you, I'm not dishing on DP here. This is just my experience while trying things out with the DP demo I installed last week... on Windows no less :D
CrimsonWarlock aka TechnoGremlin, Moved to Reason and Rack Extensions exclusively (from Reaper and VSTs) several years ago.

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crimsonwarlock wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 7:42 am
machinesworking wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 7:08 am ...never thought routing was a weak point in DP.
I didn't say it is a weak point, I said it is cumbersome.
It might be because you seem to be wanting to instantiate busses in the Bundles window, which I only use if I want to name them. Most of the time I just use a template with super typical named buses, stems, reverb etc. when it comes to elaborate bussing I just grab some on an input etc.
machinesworking wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 7:08 am Pro Tools and DP use hardware mixers as a start, some DAWs like Logic and Reason don't.
If you action things from right-click menus, Reason does the plugging for you,
That's what I'm talking about, Reason, Logic etc. have instant bussing, usually in a popup menu in Logics case, whereas DP treats a buss as a wire, and Aux track are always live tracks.

Mind you, I'm not dishing on DP here. This is just my experience while trying things out with the DP demo I installed last week... on Windows no less :D
IMO you've gotten pretty far for only a week, but I think it's safe to say we all take some time to find out all the things about a DAW. I have a copy of Reason and really wish they hadn't abandoned Rewire, especially now that computers are fast enough to make it a trivial hit to have two open DAWs, and Reason without VSTs is a full environment on it's own. I use Reason as a rack plugin mostly, but I should look into it's DAW capabilities, havent used it since 2.5 as a sequencer.
:borg:

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machinesworking wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 5:15 pm It might be because you seem to be wanting to instantiate busses in the Bundles window, which I only use if I want to name them.
I don't want to instantiate busses in the Bundles window, I want to instantiate a bus/aux in the mixer and route other mixer channels to it. Like this way in Reason:

2024-06-20 15_45_01-Window.png

As you can see, I can add a channel that I name e.g. "Vocal Bus", and then I can link the output of any other channel to this bus-channel. As soon as you link another channel to it, it becomes a bus and is designated with a red fader to differentiate from "normal" channels.

(By the way, why can't I rename channels in the mixer-view in DP?)

In DP, I have to add an aux-channel (no problem with that), but I can't route another channel directly to this new aux because the aux-channels do not show up in the output-menu of other channels:

2024-06-20 15_39_42-Window.png

As the image shows, you can only route to a Bundle, either a numbered one or one you named in advance in the Bundles editor. If you don't name them, which seemingly can only be done in the Bundles window, then all the routing that's going on in the mixes becomes an opaque mess very fast.

This is not very intuitive, and certainly not how hardware mixers work. On a real mixing desk, buses are not connection points, they are special mixer channels that are designated as buses. This is exactly how the Reason mixer (and most DAWs) work, and definitely not how DP (and ProTools for that matter) works.

It's not a deal-breaker (for me), but as I said before, absolutely cumbersome. Especially when you know how straight-forward and obvious this can work in Reason for example.
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CrimsonWarlock aka TechnoGremlin, Moved to Reason and Rack Extensions exclusively (from Reaper and VSTs) several years ago.

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crimsonwarlock wrote: Thu Jun 20, 2024 6:12 am As you can see, I can add a channel that I name e.g. "Vocal Bus", and then I can link the output of any other channel to this bus-channel. As soon as you link another channel to it, it becomes a bus and is designated with a red fader to differentiate from "normal" channels.
So it sounds like Reason is essentially doing the same thing as DP, it's just tying it directly to an aux track, I'm assuming the ability to use a send from a track to that bus is there too right?
(By the way, why can't I rename channels in the mixer-view in DP?)
You can, with option/alt click.
In DP, I have to add an aux-channel (no problem with that), but I can't route another channel directly to this new aux because the aux-channels do not show up in the output-menu of other channels:
Aux channels are just a destination track, busses are what will get you what you want here.


As the image shows, you can only route to a Bundle, either a numbered one or one you named in advance in the Bundles editor. If you don't name them, which seemingly can only be done in the Bundles window, then all the routing that's going on in the mixes becomes an opaque mess very fast.
the way I deal with it is simple, for common items I name them in the Bundles window and save it in my template, for uncommon I generally just use them numbered, unless I start going nuts then I name them.
This is not very intuitive, and certainly not how hardware mixers work. On a real mixing desk, buses are not connection points, they are special mixer channels that are designated as buses. This is exactly how the Reason mixer (and most DAWs) work, and definitely not how DP (and ProTools for that matter) works.

It's not a deal-breaker (for me), but as I said before, absolutely cumbersome. Especially when you know how straight-forward and obvious this can work in Reason for example.
I'm on the fence with this one. Every solution to bussing in a DAW is inherently not like a mixer, because they're all a lot more flexible, but I don't really think automagically routing things is more intuitive. In Logic and Bitwig for example the ability to do multi out from VST/AU's is a submenu item, specifically in Logic it is a bit better, each audio output from say Kontakt is also a MIDI track for that instrument out in Kontakt. 8 instruments in a single Kontakt instance look and behave like 8 separate instances. But it's only intuitive when you know where to look for this feature and you're aware that you did not just create 8 instances of Kontakt. To me it's just more intuitive to have a bussing system that publishes Kontakt outputs as choices for inputs on Aux and audio tracks.

Just like with the Reason Rack plugin, as a VSTi it's straightforward to route the MIDI tools from Reason into DP to use with instruments in other tracks. More or less the way Live and Reaper do it, not like Logic which wants it as a MIDI plugin. That works but not with drum instruments in Reason, which you can route a single hit to another instrument in DP etc. but not in Logic.


Oh and tomorrow's webinar on Voice Processing at 9:30 PST is more or less on this subject, if you can make it, Matt from MOTU answers questions at the end. They publish the recording for a day or two on Facebook as well.
https://motu.com/en-us/products/softwar ... vZAa0Y1S_I

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machinesworking wrote: Thu Jun 20, 2024 6:50 pm
(By the way, why can't I rename channels in the mixer-view in DP?)
You can, with option/alt click.
Thanks for the tip.
machinesworking wrote: Thu Jun 20, 2024 6:50 pm I'm on the fence with this one. Every solution to bussing in a DAW is inherently not like a mixer...
Except in Reason, where it is EXACTLY like a real mixer. The only difference is that you can add as much mixer channels as you need, while hardware is obviously fixed. But all the connections to the mixer and between mixer channels (like buses and mults) are cabled just like in hardware. The only exception in Reason is with audio tracks, which are directly connected to a mixer channel without (virtual) cables.

This also means that you can setup complex routings like with a real hardware mixing desk, that are near impossible in any other DAW. There are even several Rack Extensions that play into these possibilities.
machinesworking wrote: Thu Jun 20, 2024 6:50 pm ... but I don't really think automagically routing things is more intuitive.
In Reason, the auto-routing is just so you don't have to plug those (virtual) cables yourself. But everything is freely pluggable as you like anyway.
machinesworking wrote: Thu Jun 20, 2024 6:50 pm Oh and tomorrow's webinar on Voice Processing at 9:30 PST is more or less on this subject, if you can make it, Matt from MOTU answers questions at the end. They publish the recording for a day or two on Facebook as well.
https://motu.com/en-us/products/softwar ... vZAa0Y1S_I
Thanks for the heads-up, I'll try to watch when they post it on FB.
CrimsonWarlock aka TechnoGremlin, Moved to Reason and Rack Extensions exclusively (from Reaper and VSTs) several years ago.

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