Something that has been bugging me recently are dynamic levels. - What levels should music be at generally? 0db? -10db? - What should be the highest peak? - Is it ok to spike into the red ocasionally? What value should never be exceeded? What do you normalise to? Does compression make a difference?
Thanks.
levels - how high?
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JumpingJackFlash JumpingJackFlash https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=44005
- KVRian
- 1227 posts since 10 Oct, 2004
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- KVRAF
- 2565 posts since 30 Mar, 2004 from Phoenix AZ USA
NO!Is it ok to spike into the red occasionally?
You do not want to go over 0dB on any tracks or master.
Not to be confused with some instrument equipment that has two LED display where the red is at -6 dB not zero and the idea is that you need the red to blink occasionally.
But in your DAW you do not want any peaks above 0 dB.
Compressors and limiters are tools to help with these tasks. I suggest you read a little about them, it is definitely a big part of the whole recording field.
And once you learn them try not to abuse them as so many in the quest of "Louder is better mentality".
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- KVRAF
- 8706 posts since 24 May, 2002 from Tutukaka, New Zealand
Alot (as usual) depends on what you're doing.
With hardware, occasional overs can be a good thing sonically. Comps with VCAs etc can sound lovely when overdriven.
With PC audio, anything over 0dB peak is a huge no-no. It'll clip nastily and never in a good way unless you're tone deaf.
If you're recording from h/w into the PC, then you generally want to get the recording as high as possible (as close to peaking at just below 0dB as you can) to reduce noise. If you have a low noisy recording, when you bring up the level of the recording, the noise also gets louder! When you're recording digitally from within your PC, say from VSTi, then having a hot recording is not really that important for most things like synthesisers, although if you're rendering FX such as reverb, there's still a benefit from recording as high as you can. Reverb tails are very low in volume, and the lower they get, the more digital recordings will skew the sound. And reverb tails can be quite noticeable.
But there's also RMS levels (root mean square) which is basically just your average volume, not peaks. Plugins like Inspector and Voxengo Span tell you your RMS levels. The general wisdom seems to be RMS levels anywhere around -12 to -9. Much above -9 and you're getting into pretty heavy compression/limiting territory - which is not always a bad thing - it's down to personal taste, but if it's done badly can certainly affect the ease of listening and quality of sound.
I do all kinds of music. Some I've had pretty high RMS levels - I generally try not to go over -9, although some mixes have been OK higher. Recently I've done some sparser mixes which have been averaging -15 RMS and lower. And they sounded just good to listen to as highly compressed loud stuff, but alot of that has been because I've been dedicating alot of time in channel compression or other tricks to maximise the impact of each channel at the mixing stage. If I was doing a dancey type dense mix, I'd probably be happy with far higher RMS levels and a sloppier mix.
Another thing is that with your mix, you don't necessarily want it too high - comps and limiters can deal with clips, but many comps work better and are less likely to distort and let through spikes if they have a little bit of headroom to play with. Remember that many compressors have attack times that only go down to 0.5mSec, or even higher. Which means very quick transients can slip through and not necessarily show on your meters - but you'll hear them in the end
. A hard limiter can stop those, but possibly at the cost of loss of quality. Soft limiters sound nicer to the ears, but to be sure with a soft limiter, you need to not have lots of big spikes that go over odB peaks.
My general rules are:
1. Channel recording as close to 0dB peaks without clipping. From s/w I'll probably stop pulling up the fader when I see -0.5 peaks. From h/w I'll usually stop when I see -1 peaks, or I'll go higher if I'm running it through a comp or limiter.
2. Master meters occasionally flashing orange (or whatever your meters do). Never flashing red. Pull down your channel faders if your master is too hot.
3. Final mix/master...I always use a limiter (not necessarily to increase volume, but to stop clips).
4. Set your master limiter to output to slightly below 0dB. I generally set to -0.2 or maybe -0.3. Some CD players don't like 0dB peaks, although that's becoming a thing of the past now. If your master is going to regularly reach that output, then make sure it's a brickwall limiter.
5. If you're going to make a very loud mix - if you're going to use a limiter for volume, then use a soft limiter for the volume, and a brickwall limiter afterwards purely to stop the clips. Brickwall limiters used for volume will distort if pushed too hard.
Another wee tip - if you use Cubase...use the softclip in the dynamics section when recording from s/w. I never used to use that, but it's a very useful and not bad sounding accessory that I'm using more and more. As long as you don't have heaps of overs, it'll quietly and efficiently control your channel recordings and even add a hint of character. It also means that if you're not a whizz on things like compressors, you can't go wrong with bad settings. I even use it after compressors - a comp to get the dynamics control or character etc, then softclip to stop overs.
Another tip is Tls Maximiser or Buzz maximiser. Use one of those at recording stage (for s/w). Tls does soft limiting and is very clean, and has Eq and a nice saturation circuit if you want it. The Buzz one I've only recently tested out properly...had it in my plugins folder for ages but didn't use it. I've found it to be just that little bit brighter than Tls - quite surprised me at first, and it's bloody good. But they are read-ahead limiters, so don't use them for recording live h/w.
Here endeth the sermon
With hardware, occasional overs can be a good thing sonically. Comps with VCAs etc can sound lovely when overdriven.
With PC audio, anything over 0dB peak is a huge no-no. It'll clip nastily and never in a good way unless you're tone deaf.
If you're recording from h/w into the PC, then you generally want to get the recording as high as possible (as close to peaking at just below 0dB as you can) to reduce noise. If you have a low noisy recording, when you bring up the level of the recording, the noise also gets louder! When you're recording digitally from within your PC, say from VSTi, then having a hot recording is not really that important for most things like synthesisers, although if you're rendering FX such as reverb, there's still a benefit from recording as high as you can. Reverb tails are very low in volume, and the lower they get, the more digital recordings will skew the sound. And reverb tails can be quite noticeable.
But there's also RMS levels (root mean square) which is basically just your average volume, not peaks. Plugins like Inspector and Voxengo Span tell you your RMS levels. The general wisdom seems to be RMS levels anywhere around -12 to -9. Much above -9 and you're getting into pretty heavy compression/limiting territory - which is not always a bad thing - it's down to personal taste, but if it's done badly can certainly affect the ease of listening and quality of sound.
I do all kinds of music. Some I've had pretty high RMS levels - I generally try not to go over -9, although some mixes have been OK higher. Recently I've done some sparser mixes which have been averaging -15 RMS and lower. And they sounded just good to listen to as highly compressed loud stuff, but alot of that has been because I've been dedicating alot of time in channel compression or other tricks to maximise the impact of each channel at the mixing stage. If I was doing a dancey type dense mix, I'd probably be happy with far higher RMS levels and a sloppier mix.
Another thing is that with your mix, you don't necessarily want it too high - comps and limiters can deal with clips, but many comps work better and are less likely to distort and let through spikes if they have a little bit of headroom to play with. Remember that many compressors have attack times that only go down to 0.5mSec, or even higher. Which means very quick transients can slip through and not necessarily show on your meters - but you'll hear them in the end
. A hard limiter can stop those, but possibly at the cost of loss of quality. Soft limiters sound nicer to the ears, but to be sure with a soft limiter, you need to not have lots of big spikes that go over odB peaks.My general rules are:
1. Channel recording as close to 0dB peaks without clipping. From s/w I'll probably stop pulling up the fader when I see -0.5 peaks. From h/w I'll usually stop when I see -1 peaks, or I'll go higher if I'm running it through a comp or limiter.
2. Master meters occasionally flashing orange (or whatever your meters do). Never flashing red. Pull down your channel faders if your master is too hot.
3. Final mix/master...I always use a limiter (not necessarily to increase volume, but to stop clips).
4. Set your master limiter to output to slightly below 0dB. I generally set to -0.2 or maybe -0.3. Some CD players don't like 0dB peaks, although that's becoming a thing of the past now. If your master is going to regularly reach that output, then make sure it's a brickwall limiter.
5. If you're going to make a very loud mix - if you're going to use a limiter for volume, then use a soft limiter for the volume, and a brickwall limiter afterwards purely to stop the clips. Brickwall limiters used for volume will distort if pushed too hard.
Another wee tip - if you use Cubase...use the softclip in the dynamics section when recording from s/w. I never used to use that, but it's a very useful and not bad sounding accessory that I'm using more and more. As long as you don't have heaps of overs, it'll quietly and efficiently control your channel recordings and even add a hint of character. It also means that if you're not a whizz on things like compressors, you can't go wrong with bad settings. I even use it after compressors - a comp to get the dynamics control or character etc, then softclip to stop overs.
Another tip is Tls Maximiser or Buzz maximiser. Use one of those at recording stage (for s/w). Tls does soft limiting and is very clean, and has Eq and a nice saturation circuit if you want it. The Buzz one I've only recently tested out properly...had it in my plugins folder for ages but didn't use it. I've found it to be just that little bit brighter than Tls - quite surprised me at first, and it's bloody good. But they are read-ahead limiters, so don't use them for recording live h/w.
Here endeth the sermon
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JumpingJackFlash JumpingJackFlash https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=44005
- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1227 posts since 10 Oct, 2004
Thanks, that's useful.
About the plug-ins you mention (softclip, Tls Maximiser, Buzz maximiser) - is there an equivalant in Logic? - Or, are there any freebie equivalants you can download?
What is the best limiter to use? - I've been using the one that comes with Logic, which seems to be good, but are there any better ones out there (preferably freebies)?
And another question: Supposeing my levels go over 0db. What's the best thing to do about it; simply lower the volume, normalise it somehow, or/and compress it somehow??
Are there any disadvantages to compressing/limiting tracks?
About the plug-ins you mention (softclip, Tls Maximiser, Buzz maximiser) - is there an equivalant in Logic? - Or, are there any freebie equivalants you can download?
What is the best limiter to use? - I've been using the one that comes with Logic, which seems to be good, but are there any better ones out there (preferably freebies)?
And another question: Supposeing my levels go over 0db. What's the best thing to do about it; simply lower the volume, normalise it somehow, or/and compress it somehow??
Are there any disadvantages to compressing/limiting tracks?
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- KVRAF
- 3441 posts since 15 Mar, 2003
It's really a choice. Compression will have an effect on the sound unless used sparingly.
You could just lower the levels of the offending chanels, but that will change you mix.
You can lower everything, but then the overall volume will be lower. You could then use a maximizer to raise the levels. The maximizer will have a limiter that will keep you from going over 0db, but if used too much will cause a noticable loss of dynamics and eventually cause distortion.
This is a balancing act that will require personal judgement based on personal preferences in sound and the type of music.
Experiment.
You could just lower the levels of the offending chanels, but that will change you mix.
You can lower everything, but then the overall volume will be lower. You could then use a maximizer to raise the levels. The maximizer will have a limiter that will keep you from going over 0db, but if used too much will cause a noticable loss of dynamics and eventually cause distortion.
This is a balancing act that will require personal judgement based on personal preferences in sound and the type of music.
Experiment.
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- KVRAF
- 1927 posts since 30 Oct, 2003 from Frolicking in Dirac's Ocean
Thanks, kritikon...that's some helpful information described in a cogent fashion.
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- KVRAF
- 8706 posts since 24 May, 2002 from Tutukaka, New Zealand
About the plug-ins you mention (softclip, Tls Maximiser, Buzz maximiser) - is there an equivalant in Logic? - Or, are there any freebie equivalants you can download?
What is the best limiter to use? - I've been using the one that comes with Logic, which seems to be good, but are there any better ones out there (preferably freebies)?
And another question: Supposeing my levels go over 0db. What's the best thing to do about it; simply lower the volume, normalise it somehow, or/and compress it somehow??
Are there any disadvantages to compressing/limiting tracks?
Sorry....I don't know Logic at all nowadays - it's a long while since I used it. When you say Logic, I presume you're on a Mac? I can help you even less there - I'm PC based.
As for the rest...what PT said. There are no hard and fast rules how you do it.
I pretty well always use some kind of compression on the whole mix, even if only light. But that's no safety net for stopping overs, and I use compression for overall cohesiveness of the track rather than stopping peaks. Personally I prefer to not have visible clips on the master buss - so I do that by pulling individual channels down, but I even break my own rules on that if I really can't be bothered. Sometimes you've just had enough of one project so you take shortcuts. Any good limiter will stop the occasional overs without doing any damage to the quality, as long as your peaks aren't frequent and long ones.
Of course, a real easy way out is to use some kind of tape sat plugin like T-Racks etc - that's very effective at squishing, but mostly I don't like the character, and not enough control on the parameters. But tape saturation emulations can sound better than straight limiters if you like that effect. Basically tape sat is limiting, but with alot of sonic colour that goes with it.
Another tip to reduce the number of spikes is to use serial compression. You may still get some spikes, but your RMS levels will generally be pulled up enough way that the odd bit of limiting doesn't sound amiss. Also, I often use limiting on my drum group buss - drums are very tolerant of heavy dynamic jiggery pokery...can even benefit from a bit of over-limiting and the distortion that introduces (depending on the style you're making). And alot of the overs you get will often come from snares - so if they are limited before the master buss, you'll get less spikes there.
The main thing is - it's generally better to have a slightly too-quiet mix than a slightly too-loud one. Quiet ones can be fiddled with and made louder or more vibrant or more punchy, too-loud ones are already buggered if you've distorted them. If you just don't get clips at the master buss to start with, you've less to worry about.