HALion 7

[bmanic]

Many synth doesn't have the env depth as a destination
It's just a choice

Those that don't at least usually allow you to further modulate a matrix target, thus giving you exactly this option. Usually velocity is already mapped to this by default in many classic topologies but keyboard tracking is also extremely useful for this target.. hence my question to begin with. It's such a useful parameter for fine tuning filter response to your playing.

[IvyBirds]

I want the Envelope Amount to be the target and the source to be key tracking. But the issue is that Filter Envelope Amount is NOT available as a target anywhere to my knowledge. There are many more knobs within the various sections of HALion that are not listed anywhere as modulation targets, many of them really useful and often found in other synths as targets.

This leads me to believe that HALion is rather restricted in it's synthesis capabilities.

However, there may be a workaround. I could use the user envelope and set it to cutoff, then use key tracking to modulate the amount of this. Will investigate.

The envelopes in HALion are very very deep and very very powerful featuring up to 512 nodes

The Amp, Filter, and Pitch envelopes are pre-assigned to the amplitude, the filter cutoff frequency, and the pitch of the zone. The User envelope is freely assignable offers the most flexibility

In addition to that you get the envelope shaper tool



Once you wrap your head around how they work and the terminology you understand that the basic three envelopes can do the overwhelming vast majority of what your needs are for envelopes, using user envelopes and/or the shaper tool will allow you to do everything else

I LOVE sound design, I own every powerful plugin known for deep sound design, and I can honestly say once you learn to use it you will see HALion7 is very very deep and far from restricted in synthesis capabilities.

[bmanic]

Ok, it is possible to do what I asked. HALion goes exactly 2 layers deep with it's modulation it seems. That's it. So it's moderately powerful and can do most standard tasks. Still, no match for Falcon, Alchemy, Avenger 2 etc. But at least you can assign a modulation source to the same targets as many times as you want, giving you some workarounds by summing mod signals.

Halion has got some nice scaling functions too for the modulation so it's relatively easy to fine tune the response of whatever you want to use for controlling the mod amount. Unfortunately this scaling window is a tiny popup window! Very frustrating.

[IvyBirds]

Still, no match for Falcon, Alchemy, Avenger 2 etc.

I own all of those and can't remember the last time I used any of them, because for me HALion7 blows all of them away and is much more powerful and has many more options and the synth itself is far easier to use

This is especially true with the FM Synthesis options in HALion7 that are amazing and in Falcon are a joke

The sample and synthesis engine inside of HALion7 is far superior to that of Falcon and it's 100X more pleasant to use

Once you get used to how HALion7 is laid out and what you can do with it, especially when paired with the Note Expressions that are part of Cubase it's unrivaled, double so if you are into FM especially classic Yamaha/John Chowning style FM

I also enjoy the spectral oscillators inside of HALion7 can't do that in Falcon

Then you get the super simple workflow of turning samples into Wavetables

So to recap, when it comes to actual synthesis, the FM in HALion7 blows the others away, the Spectral Synthesis options blows the others away and the ease of use when it comes to actually making samples, actually making wavetables, actually using granular as a Synthesis tool is stunning and light-years better than the ones you mentioned

Having said that if you judge a synth by more esoteric modulation options perhaps you won't find them in HALion7. But I have to say I have yet to run into any modulation situation I wanted to do inside of HALion7 I couldn't pull off rather easily, my guess is not many people have

[Satch1]

HALion goes exactly 2 layers deep with its modulation it seems.

Maybe I’m misunderstanding what you mean, but you can use the modulation buses to go extra layers deep. For example:

Slot 1 Source - LFO 1
Modifier - Filt Env

Slot 1 Destination - Bus 1

Slot 2 Source - Bus 1
Modifier - Velocity

Slot 2 Destination - Filt Cutoff

You can even chain buses if you like.

[SLiC]

Still, no match for Falcon, Alchemy, Avenger 2 etc.

I own all of those and can't remember the last time I used any of them, because for me HALion7 blows all of them away and is much more powerful and has many more options and the synth itself is far easier to use

This is especially true with the FM Synthesis options in HALion7 that are amazing and in Falcon are a joke

The sample and synthesis engine inside of HALion7 is far superior to that of Falcon and it's 100X more pleasant to use

Once you get used to how HALion7 is laid out and what you can do with it, especially when paired with the Note Expressions that are part of Cubase it's unrivaled, double so if you are into FM especially classic Yamaha/John Chowning style FM

I also enjoy the spectral oscillators inside of HALion7 can't do that in Falcon

Then you get the super simple workflow of turning samples into Wavetables

So to recap, when it comes to actual synthesis, the FM in HALion7 blows the others away, the Spectral Synthesis options blows the others away and the ease of use when it comes to actually making samples, actually making wavetables, actually using granular as a Synthesis tool is stunning and light-years better than the ones you mentioned

Having said that if you judge a synth by more esoteric modulation options perhaps you won't find them in HALion7. But I have to say I have yet to run into any modulation situation I wanted to do inside of HALion7 I couldn't pull off rather easily, my guess is not many people have

To be fair, I think bmanic was talking about one specific point regarding modulation, not which one is overall best.

HALion has some advantages over all of those DAWS as you pointed out (I would also add that it can actually sample !) but those DAWS also have some advantages or unique features over HALion..probably why we all own more than one 'super VST' which really shouldn't be necessary!

I suspect everyone thinks HALion sounds great and once you get your head around it is no more difficult to use than Falcon (both have a learning curve) BUT, Steinberg make (in my opinion) ugly software with non scalable interfaces and often inconsistent, unrefined workflow* For a newbie just trying to make/start with clean INIT patch can be a nightmare! HALion for me was one of the hardest instruments I actually had to 'learn' (fortunately there are great videos) so you have to be prepared to commit...you wont get much out of clicking around in a demo but if you just want the sounds there is always Halion Sonic.

HALion is an obvious choice for Cubase users, but for non-Cubase users the media bay etc wont be intuitive and some of the HALion design choices are with Cubase integration in mind. many of the thinks I don't like about HALion (death buy windows, inconsistent workflow etc ) are the reasons I personally left Cubase for Studio One about Cubase 9...

I think HALion should be far more popular that it is and the lack of 3rd party instruments (companied to Kontakt and UVI) may be because the 'workflow' is off-putting (for users) with people not even installing the free and rather good X-STREAM due to the convoluted instal/licence system

* some may argue all the different screen layouts , 25+ different editors, 'pop up' windowed screens, full screens etc are all part of the 'customisable' workflow, personally I found it a bit much with a tool in one editor not necessarily performing like a tool in another editor...

[Gam456]

I also enjoy the spectral oscillators inside of HALion7 can't do that in Falcon

HALion7 is powerfull, but like any synth it will be limited on other side.

The strength of Falcon isn't a deep synthesis . It somewhere else
19 osc like additive, fm, wavetable, analog physicall, voice, bowed, texture, harmonic resonator and an unlimited number of lfo, enveloppe, a tremendous colection of effects.

[SLiC]

I also enjoy the spectral oscillators inside of HALion7 can't do that in Falcon

HALion7 is powerfull, but like any synth it will be limited on other side.

The strength of Falcon isn't a deep synthesis . It somewhere else
19 osc like additive, fm, wavetable, analog physicall, voice, bowed, texture, harmonic resonator and an unlimited number of lfo, enveloppe, a tremendous colection of effects.

Yes, this and at more logical 'one screen' interface and more modern workflow and modern scalable GUI still make this the GOAT for me...the FX are defiantly better than HALion in my opinion. The actual sound engines are if anything the weaker point against HALion, there are more of them but most are pretty basic and I think in HALion is better on the ones that matter (FM, Granular, Wavetable etc) which is a big plus.

So -HALion is worth having 'as well' for the 'real' sampling, spectral synth, very powerful WT synth and most of all possible the best FM synth (certainly if you like the Yamaha stuff) available.

[db3]

Other than the messy installer, I've been pleasantly surprised with the Halion 7 demo. Lots of usable presets for making cool multi-layer patches. I'll probably end up grabbing the competitive crossgrade offer. I can't put my finger on it, but Falcon always leaves me cold sonically.

[IvyBirds]

I think HALion should be far more popular that it is and the lack of 3rd party instruments (companied to Kontakt and UVI) may be because the 'workflow' is off-putting (for users) with people not even installing the free and rather good X-STREAM due to the convoluted instal/licence system.[/i]

I think from reading the 300+ page thread on Falcon that most users are like me and relegate Falcon to a preset player because the UI is simply terrible. UVI and Kontact both have a ton of extra content you can buy for even more presets but you don't actually need to full on version of either to use them

What's funny however at least for me is I sample the presets in Falcon and Kontact and bring those samples into HALion7 where I do other things with them and transform them into other things

On the preset/soundware side, I fully expect by the end of the year or early 2025 Steinberg/Yamaha will bring Yamaha's AWM2 engine over from Montage into Halion either with version 7.5 or 8 just like they did with FM-X

As a Montage M owner who also has the Montage Plugin with the full AWM2 engine, it would simply be awesome to have that inside of HALion and would allow Yamaha and third parties to create and sell sample libraries and presets that would work in both Yamaha hardware and Steinberg Software and that will be a killer feature

[SLiC]

I think HALion should be far more popular that it is and the lack of 3rd party instruments (companied to Kontakt and UVI) may be because the 'workflow' is off-putting (for users) with people not even installing the free and rather good X-STREAM due to the convoluted instal/licence system.[/i]

I think from reading the 300+ page thread on Falcon that most users are like me and relegate Falcon to a preset player because the UI is simply terrible. UVI and Kontact both have a ton of extra content you can buy for even more presets but you don't actually need to full on version of either to use them

What's funny however at least for me is I sample the presets in Falcon and Kontact and bring those samples into HALion7 where I do other things with them and transform them into other things

On the preset/soundware side, I fully expect by the end of the year or early 2025 Steinberg/Yamaha will bring Yamaha's AWM2 engine over from Montage into Halion either with version 7.5 or 8 just like they did with FM-X

As a Montage M owner who also has the Montage Plugin with the full AWM2 engine, it would simply be awesome to have that inside of HALion and would allow Yamaha and third parties to create and sell sample libraries and presets that would work in both Yamaha hardware and Steinberg Software and that will be a killer feature

I think a lot of people just don't invest the time needed to learn complex modular software synths, the flexibility of both HALion and Falcon comes from the layers/zones/keymap concepts and both have their own idiosyncrasies, but once I released you just drag and drop a synth engine on to the 'keymap' in Falcon I was off and could work most of the rest out...right click to add modulation etc, standard stuff. HALion took me a bit longer, but most of that is due to completely configurable GUI and number of different editors- I prefer Falcons standardised 1 screen approach (As I preferred Studio One to Cubase for the same reason) but I get that's just personal preference. UVI also has an amazing liberty of instruments that run in Falcon, second to only Kontact...so nothing wrong with just playing and tweaking pre-sets if you just want to make music rather than sounds....I guess that what HALion Sonic is aimed at...

[bmanic]

HALion goes exactly 2 layers deep with its modulation it seems.

Maybe I’m misunderstanding what you mean, but you can use the modulation buses to go extra layers deep. For example:

Slot 1 Source - LFO 1
Modifier - Filt Env

Slot 1 Destination - Bus 1

Slot 2 Source - Bus 1
Modifier - Velocity

Slot 2 Destination - Filt Cutoff

You can even chain buses if you like.

That's awesome! Yeah I need to explore the bus system. Seems a bit weird to do it this way but it makes some kind of sense if you think about it in terms of a normal audio bus but for control signals.

This would indeed make it much more powerful and capable.

[bmanic]

I think HALion should be far more popular that it is and the lack of 3rd party instruments (companied to Kontakt and UVI) may be because the 'workflow' is off-putting (for users) with people not even installing the free and rather good X-STREAM due to the convoluted instal/licence system.[/i]

I think from reading the 300+ page thread on Falcon that most users are like me and relegate Falcon to a preset player because the UI is simply terrible. UVI and Kontact both have a ton of extra content you can buy for even more presets but you don't actually need to full on version of either to use them

What's funny however at least for me is I sample the presets in Falcon and Kontact and bring those samples into HALion7 where I do other things with them and transform them into other things

On the preset/soundware side, I fully expect by the end of the year or early 2025 Steinberg/Yamaha will bring Yamaha's AWM2 engine over from Montage into Halion either with version 7.5 or 8 just like they did with FM-X

As a Montage M owner who also has the Montage Plugin with the full AWM2 engine, it would simply be awesome to have that inside of HALion and would allow Yamaha and third parties to create and sell sample libraries and presets that would work in both Yamaha hardware and Steinberg Software and that will be a killer feature

I think a lot of people just don't invest the time needed to learn complex modular software synths, the flexibility of both HALion and Falcon comes from the layers/zones/keymap concepts and both have their own idiosyncrasies, but once I released you just drag and drop a synth engine on to the 'keymap' in Falcon I was off and could work most of the rest out...right click to add modulation etc, standard stuff. HALion took me a bit longer, but most of that is due to completely configurable GUI and number of different editors- I prefer Falcons standardised 1 screen approach (As I preferred Studio One to Cubase for the same reason) but I get that's just personal preference. UVI also has an amazing liberty of instruments that run in Falcon, second to only Kontact...so nothing wrong with just playing and tweaking pre-sets if you just want to make music rather than sounds....I guess that what HALion Sonic is aimed at...

UVI Falcon is absolutely terrible in terms of UI, especially "usability". It is a real nightmare to work with if you know what you are doing and want to do things fast. Falcon is one of the worst pieces of software on the planet for advanced users. Things that should take a single click can sometimes take multiple clicks and scrolling through several menus. It's horrible. The sound quality of it's synthesis and especially the effects is of very high quality. The MIDI sequencers and arpeggiators are absolutely top dog! This makes it all worth it suffering through the horrible usability.

HALion seems to have quite a bit more refined "usability" but unfortunately the GUI, the graphics themselves, is not at all optimized for people with less than optimal eye sight (that'd be me!). FM Lab is undoubtedly awesome and just "sound good" in a way that I can't quite explain. It just sounds more refined and doesn't seem to explode into harsh noise as easily as some other FM engines (for instance I have Image-Line Sytrus which is super flexible but can very easily become a bit harsh). In general what has impressed me the most with Halion is the overall consistency of the sound quality. It just sounds very neutral and sterile, but in a GOOD way. Supremely easy to get the sounds to sit within a mix.

Alchemy 2 in Logic is very difficult for me to be objective about because it's one of the most used synths of mine. I've used it ever since the very first Camel Audio version and have sank probably 5000 or more hours into it.. Heck, at least 50 of the factory presets in it are mine. Probably more of them as I had some added in the original v1.5 version too. It's a synth I know inside and out. It has it's own limitations and some issues with sound quality when it comes to some of the modes but in terms of how flexible it is, it's still one of the absolute top contenders. Still to this day it's one of the few synths that has an actual EQ node as an utility filter that is polyphonic. This is _extremely_ useful for transforming a layer/sound to exactly what you want it to be because you can keyboard track it so it stays consistent. It absolutely boggles the mind why nobody else understands just how powerful this context is. Keyboard tracking in general is vastly misunderstood by 99% of users and developers. Nobody seems to understand just how powerful of a modulation source it is.

Avenger 2 is probably the top dog when it comes to amount of flexibility and modulation capabilities it has. It can do it all but at a huge cost of CPU cycles and a somewhat compromised GUI (same issue as with Halion, the text is tiny and fonts not at all optimal for people with bad eyesight). There's also a lot of wasted space in the GUI of Avenger 2. It could all be laid out more optimally. So yeah, it's not at all perfect either.

Omnisphere's biggest strength is the amazing built in "ROM". The amount of samples and quality of them that is included even in the base package is ridiculous. Unfortunately the actual synthesis capabilities of Omnisphere is severely limited with just a single polyphonic LFO and user multi-stage envelope.

So yeah, I guess I'm going to be one of those guys who owns all of the big mega synths because I'm just about to purchase a license for Halion 7.

[RobGee]

I definitely would like to spend more time with Halion but have struggled with the interface when using it before.

Coming from Emu hardware samplers, then moving onto Kontakt and finally Falcon I can say that Halion has been the worst interface wise for me. Although I’ve probably not pushed through that painful stage as I have so much other stuff I can use.

Falcon wasn’t great but I didn’t find it anywhere near as bad as Halion. I guess I’m gonna have to give Halion another go at some point if they keep bringing out these improvements, plus I’m a Cubase user so it seems to make sense for me to learn it eventually.

[Gam456]

Anyone know if we can add an arp on a FM zone ?
There is an arp in almost intrument but nothing on any zone.