why would you use these functions on a drum bus? SATIN & Townhouse HISS/Asperity

[Caine123]

hi guys,

i admit, i use sometimes plugins i didnt check all values/knobs and read the manuals now and want to check my bus presets and also my settings and found out that nothing was playing my master bus showed noise, not loud but not good either.

i checked my drum bus where i use bx_townhouse.
the V-GAIN was around 25% on and i never checked this. so i switched it off

i dont sidechain but i precautiously also switched off the SC Filter

i checked my SATIN, which i use for the drum bus for some saturation and saw the culprit
HISS & Asperity, HISS is also on some presets like the Kick BUS, now i switched them off and also clicked on AUTO MUTE so it only plays when there is a signal.


but im wondering, besides lofi and stuff, why would you use HISS and noise especially in the townhouse plugin on a drum bus at all? i see no logic in that...

or am i missing something? as i said only if you want some vinyl, tape, lofi stuff but for a modern techno track?

thx

[El°HYM]

A lot of times the added Hiss is just to mask Aliasing, so lets say those Artifacts are pushed down to a certain Level, the added Noise would also be around that Level to Mask it.

The SC - Filter could also just be used internal to let the Compressor affect lesser Bass or only HF.

[funky lime]

but im wondering, besides lofi and stuff, why would you use HISS and noise especially in the townhouse plugin on a drum bus at all? i see no logic in that...

I don't know how common it is, but some people use "room tone" recordings (basically a recording of an empty stage) underneath their virtual orchestral pieces, with the aim of emulating an actual recording (the room information in virtual instruments can fade to complete digital silence, which can contribute to the uncanny valley since that doesn't happen in real recordings, so some people put noise in the quiet parts to help mask the effect). VSL provides such recordings along with their convolution engine. I can only presume that some people might also do similar things when trying to emulate, say, a live recording of a rock band.

Also, sometimes the subtle high-frequency energy of a hiss can add a je ne sais quoi to a track, even if it seems counterintuitive and even slightly annoying.

[kritikon]

but im wondering, besides lofi and stuff, why would you use HISS and noise especially in the townhouse plugin on a drum bus at all? i see no logic in that...

or am i missing something? as i said only if you want some vinyl, tape, lofi stuff but for a modern techno track?

thx

I wouldn't. As mentioned above I suppose there might be reasons for adding noise, but personally that's one of the biggest benefits of digital - no noise. Valhalla delay has a noise-add function (from memory, is it Age?" I stopped using it when I found out it basically introduces a constant white noise - quite audible in the quiet parts if you crank up the age knob and have delay high in the mix with any kind of compression over the mix. I guess I understand noise was part of old recording gear but does anyone really like unwanted noise? Recording character, yes - noise, no.

[ramseysounds]

A lot of times the added Hiss is just to mask Aliasing, so lets say those Artifacts are pushed down to a certain Level, the added Noise would also be around that Level to Mask it.

Hiss, crackle and noise and other settings like that were introduced by developers as digital sound is ‘too clean’. Some people want to emulate old vinyl records and analogue equipment noise, for those who know what a record is. Personally Ive never seen the point. Nothing to do with hiding aliasing imo. A lot of Waves plugins let you add ‘hiss’ at 50 and 60hz, which is meant to represent electricity hum.

[Caine123]

thanks guys, i know the time with vinyl vs CD, i dunno but yeah vinyl has always had some flavour but to tell you the truth i hated it when i always had a crackle or crackling at the same spot even on new records you were not crackle free. pre-2000 there was also more dynamics and sometimes on ambient parts it sucked.... it got its charm but also with vhs i replaced this asap when digital stuff was released. as i said i like to add lofi stuff on things i want to have an old sound and lofi but on techno etc. i see no point, especially adding it on main presets for mixing and mastering.

again something learned, thx guys!

[El°HYM]

A lot of times the added Hiss is just to mask Aliasing, so lets say those Artifacts are pushed down to a certain Level, the added Noise would also be around that Level to Mask it.

Hiss, crackle and noise and other settings like that were introduced by developers as digital sound is ‘too clean’. Some people want to emulate old vinyl records and analogue equipment noise, for those who know what a record is. Personally Ive never seen the point. Nothing to do with hiding aliasing imo. A lot of Waves plugins let you add ‘hiss’ at 50 and 60hz, which is meant to represent electricity hum.

So what does adding some low level noise do to a slightly aliasing plugin, for which Waves is certainly a very good example?

[ramseysounds]

But you're introducing one problem to deal with another problem. In the 2 examples the OP has used, the controls are there to add back in analogue noise. I don't see what the issue is.

[El°HYM]

I have no Issue, sir. Just trying to explain, that if Townhouse e.g. introduces some Aliasing Artifacts at a certain (low) Level and some Noise is then added around that same Level, the effect of that will be Masking.

[bmanic]

Having some low level noise is a very common trick in various genres. For instance minimalist techno tracks almost always use different kinds of noise to give character and a flavor to a track. It's a part of the indentity of the genre.

Same goes for various synth sounds. It's very common to add some noise to pads, leads and stacks. Not enough that you can distinguish the noise but enough that the sound is a bit fuller.

But I almost always turn the noise off when a plugin allows it. If I want a particular type of noise for a track I just use a long sample of noise and feed that to various places as desired. It keeps it much more flexible and you get to shape that noise.

I think the noise is there in various emulated plugins to get closer to the hardware. One of the things that people pick out in blind shoot outs is the lack of noise in the plugin versions. In various hardware chains it is not at all uncommon for the noise to rise up to -80 or even -70dBFS and that is already in the realm of "you can hear it". It adds a bit of "glue" to a track. A completely digital recording with a noisefloor of 24bit (so approximately -144dBFS) will sound quite sterile, especially if there are gaps in the audio where nothing is playing. But it will only sound sterile to a generation that was used to noise. It's completely subjective. I know people who prefer a completely digital signal chain and who are very intolerant of noise.

[bmanic]

I have no Issue, sir. Just trying to explain, that if Townhouse e.g. introduces some Aliasing Artifacts at a certain (low) Level and some Noise is then added around that same Level, the effect of that will be Masking.

Indeed. What would be interesting is if a compressor had "dynamic noise" available. Meaning that the level of the noise would get louder when you have more aggressive gain reduction at faster attack and release speeds (which is where the aliasing is at it's worst). That masking effect could actually be quite pleasant.

I'll have to experiment with that..

[kraster]

A lot of times the added Hiss is just to mask Aliasing, so lets say those Artifacts are pushed down to a certain Level, the added Noise would also be around that Level to Mask it.

Hiss, crackle and noise and other settings like that were introduced by developers as digital sound is ‘too clean’. Some people want to emulate old vinyl records and analogue equipment noise, for those who know what a record is. Personally Ive never seen the point. Nothing to do with hiding aliasing imo. A lot of Waves plugins let you add ‘hiss’ at 50 and 60hz, which is meant to represent electricity hum.

So what does adding some low level noise do to a slightly aliasing plugin, for which Waves is certainly a very good example?

To be fair, if you're modelling certain hardware then noise is going to be an unavoidable factor in emulation.

The townhouse SSL is a pretty noisy unit and It would be weird to model something that has pretty noticeable S:N levels and not have some kind of emulation of that.

Also wouldn't noise do more for masking quantisation errors rather than aliasing.

[El°HYM]

Its a very useful yet also pretty old Trick in Audio World (think of Dithering here) and totally agree with bmanic, of course adding Noise to certain Genres (Dub Techno, Ambient etc.) is just an excellent Way of breathing back some Life into a 'cold' - digital sound.


So just to clarify what I actually meant, here are some Pictures.


Noiselevel -70dB (V-Gain)


Noiselevel -100dB (V-Gain)


Noiselevel Off (V-Gain)

[Kr3eM]

What would be interesting is if a compressor had "dynamic noise" available. Meaning that the level of the noise would get louder when you have more aggressive gain reduction at faster attack and release speeds (which is where the aliasing is at it's worst). That masking effect could actually be quite pleasant.

I'll have to experiment with that..

Think Voxengo Shumovick has a dynamic function that does that, it can be used to either compress or expand the noise IIRC.

[swilow11]

Uhe Colour Copy has the noise floor setting which confused the hell out me initially seeing a very low constant level on my meters even with nothing running through the unit. It can be rendered inaudible via direct settings, and increased with a change of delay 'colour'. I absolutely don't see the point but viewtopic.php?t=580110&start=15