HALion 7

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BBFG# wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 3:03 pm
gentleclockdivider wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 1:52 pm Is anyone using halyon outside of cubase , if so are there any major cons ?
Not extensively yet since I just finally upgraded to 7.1. I had an issue with certain 3rd party libraries that showed as having no license but showed up without issue after a complete system reboot. Also got hit with a Windows update that again, installed everything I had stripped off it and that added an additional 30%-60% on top of application usage. Once I got those stripped again, I've tried in in standalone, Cubase13, Bitwig4.4 with no issue and better, smoother and quicker response. Have yet to try it in Wavegorm13 or Mixbus7.
(Usage back between 18%-28% in DAW, 13%-17% in standalone.)
But it all seems great so far.
Are you using Halion in multicore ?

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Gam456 wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 6:40 pm
BBFG# wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 3:03 pm
gentleclockdivider wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 1:52 pm Is anyone using halyon outside of cubase , if so are there any major cons ?
Not extensively yet since I just finally upgraded to 7.1. I had an issue with certain 3rd party libraries that showed as having no license but showed up without issue after a complete system reboot. Also got hit with a Windows update that again, installed everything I had stripped off it and that added an additional 30%-60% on top of application usage. Once I got those stripped again, I've tried in in standalone, Cubase13, Bitwig4.4 with no issue and better, smoother and quicker response. Have yet to try it in Waveform13 or Mixbus7.
(Usage back between 18%-28% in DAW, 13%-17% in standalone.)
But it all seems great so far.
Are you using Halion in multicore ?
Not sure, but this is only my Xeon 4c system, so I would hope so.
Double checked and found the standalone is running mostly between 6%-10%. Although it seems engine dependent as well. Going through Skylab, the numbers jump to 8%-15% with an occasional jump to 22%.
Going through the DAWs generally adds another 7%-12%.

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As far as I understand, Halion 7.1 does not support MPE but can it respond to PolyAT? I can cross grade because of Falcon and Halion does several things much better like FM and the new spectral oscillator. From a sound design perspective, this would be very attractive but without support for at least PolyAT it would be like driving a geared sportscar with one leg. I do have the Montage M8x and its polyAT is just great, also with VSTi plugins (Diva, Pigments, ESP, Falcon etc). Not a fan of the older versions of Cubase and user of Reaper and Ableton Live, so no use of Cubase expression MPE workaround thingy.

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BBFG# wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 7:06 pm
Gam456 wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 6:40 pm
BBFG# wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 3:03 pm
gentleclockdivider wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 1:52 pm Is anyone using halyon outside of cubase , if so are there any major cons ?
Not extensively yet since I just finally upgraded to 7.1. I had an issue with certain 3rd party libraries that showed as having no license but showed up without issue after a complete system reboot. Also got hit with a Windows update that again, installed everything I had stripped off it and that added an additional 30%-60% on top of application usage. Once I got those stripped again, I've tried in in standalone, Cubase13, Bitwig4.4 with no issue and better, smoother and quicker response. Have yet to try it in Waveform13 or Mixbus7.
(Usage back between 18%-28% in DAW, 13%-17% in standalone.)
But it all seems great so far.
Are you using Halion in multicore ?
Not sure, but this is only my Xeon 4c system, so I would hope so.
Double checked and found the standalone is running mostly between 6%-10%. Although it seems engine dependent as well. Going through Skylab, the numbers jump to 8%-15% with an occasional jump to 22%.
Going through the DAWs generally adds another 7%-12%.
Halion is not multicore by defaut. You must choice the number of core in the option tab.

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Lol, I just realised that this was answered earlier and that I should have refreshed my browser. Apologies for that :P
bmanic wrote: Sat Jul 06, 2024 2:01 pm I want the Envelope Amount to be the target and the source to be key tracking. But the issue is that Filter Envelope Amount is NOT available as a target anywhere to my knowledge. There are many more knobs within the various sections of HALion that are not listed anywhere as modulation targets, many of them really useful and often found in other synths as targets.

This leads me to believe that HALion is rather restricted in it's synthesis capabilities.

However, there may be a workaround. I could use the user envelope and set it to cutoff, then use key tracking to modulate the amount of this. Will investigate.
There are several ways to approach this:

1.Each envelope has it's own velocity response parameter:
Screenshot 2024-07-11 at 11.22.11.png

2. In the modulation system, Modulation2 will affect the amount/depth of modulation1. So you can just make any modulation depth velocity dependent, if you like.
The manual might explain this better than me:
https://www.steinberg.help/r/halion/7.1 ... ers_r.html

Now about those knobs in the filter module. I have no clue why they can not be choosen as modulation target. I suppose they exist, so that velocity or envelope depth can be part of a filter module preset (Yes, almost every module has it's own presets.) and someone decided that the mod matrix shall not interfere 🤷. It is a little idiosyncratic.

Some parameters it makes sense that the mod matrix can not adjust them. For example anything resetting an oscillator would just sound broken and I mean that not in a good sense. Same for anything with steps in it, such as filter type for example. That's why there is a morph parameter in the filter module.
Also, the modulation matrix is polyphonic. This means any modulation is multiplied by the amount of voices currently playing. This explains why the effects can not be modulated from the mod matrix. It would either require one effect instance per voice, or reset the modulation on each note. Having some polyphonic effects beyond filters would be nice though. It would also be cool to get monophic modulation. I was able to create effect modulators via lua script, one day I might release it, but it is just an experiment for now.
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Last edited by tekknovator on Thu Jul 11, 2024 2:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Cepheus wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 9:41 pm As far as I understand, Halion 7.1 does not support MPE but can it respond to PolyAT? I can cross grade because of Falcon and Halion does several things much better like FM and the new spectral oscillator. From a sound design perspective, this would be very attractive but without support for at least PolyAT it would be like driving a geared sportscar with one leg. I do have the Montage M8x and its polyAT is just great, also with VSTi plugins (Diva, Pigments, ESP, Falcon etc). Not a fan of the older versions of Cubase and user of Reaper and Ableton Live, so no use of Cubase expression MPE workaround thingy.
Unfortunately it only supports channel pressure, when it comes to raw midi. Note expression in Cubase is pretty cool though. My linnstrument is automatically recognised and playable. I think Bitwig supports it as well. Iirc some old sonar versions also have note expression support.

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It isn't good enough for a flagship synth like HALion to not have MPE in 2024....Steiny have been really slow to the party on this...
X32 Desk, i9 PC, S49MK2, Studio One, BWS, Live 12. PUSH 3 SA, Osmose, Summit, Pro 3, Prophet8, Syntakt, Digitone, Drumlogue, OP1-F, Eurorack, TD27 Drums, Nord Drum3P, Guitars, Basses, Amps and of course lots of pedals!

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SLiC wrote: Thu Jul 11, 2024 2:47 am It isn't good enough for a flagship synth like HALion to not have MPE in 2024....Steiny have been really slow to the party on this...
Yea, I agree personally. Especially since cubase does really lead the way. Most controllers are recognized instantly and MPE can be recorded into note expressions. This allows the editing of MPE data like in no other host I can think of (Bitwig is close, but only for a handfull of mpe standard parameters, iirc. In cubase I can edit any cc maried to it's note by channel).

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SLiC wrote: Thu Jul 11, 2024 2:47 am It isn't good enough for a flagship synth like HALion to not have MPE in 2024....Steiny have been really slow to the party on this...
It does support it. Steinberg is not slow to the party on this, they developed Note Expression as part of the VST3 spec and as such utilize it perfectly

The other DAW developers are the ones slow to the party on this

What's amazing is for all the people who think MPE is so important and who incorrectly complain about HALion7 and other software not supporting it, using Cubase should be a no brainer as the best scenario for MPE is at DAW level since it's your DAW that makes and records sequences and manages all your incoming MIDI from external sources

So if using MPE is REALLY important to you, you are already a Cubase user anyway

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I faked mpe support on my roland fantom by loading the same preset into all of the 16 channel slots to get the polyphonic expression with my linnstrument. The same works with halion, but it is a poor workaround and very unflexible when it comes to parameter editing. Having MPE in the standalone is a long standing feature request.

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IvyBirds wrote: Thu Jul 11, 2024 3:13 am
SLiC wrote: Thu Jul 11, 2024 2:47 am It isn't good enough for a flagship synth like HALion to not have MPE in 2024....Steiny have been really slow to the party on this...
It does support it. Steinberg is not slow to the party on this, they developed Note Expression as part of the VST3 spec and as such utilize it perfectly

The other DAW developers are the ones slow to the party on this

What's amazing is for all the people who think MPE is so important and who incorrectly complain about HALion7 and other software not supporting it, using Cubase should be a no brainer as the best scenario for MPE is at DAW level since it's your DAW that makes and records sequences and manages all your incoming MIDI from external sources

So if using MPE is REALLY important to you, you are already a Cubase user anyway
I guess if HALion is only fully functional in Cubase then Steinberg should really make that clear in their marketing...

For playing MPE I have an Osmose and PUSH 3 SA.. Pretty much all DAWS (I own most of them, I diched Cubase around V9) record and edit MPE, so is HALion is MPE?- if I play it with my Osmose will it play Poly AT/MPE in any DAW/standalone?

Falcon is compatible with MPE controllers in any DAW with built in MPE mapping support and MPE factory presets...I guess this is what I was hoping for in HALion.
X32 Desk, i9 PC, S49MK2, Studio One, BWS, Live 12. PUSH 3 SA, Osmose, Summit, Pro 3, Prophet8, Syntakt, Digitone, Drumlogue, OP1-F, Eurorack, TD27 Drums, Nord Drum3P, Guitars, Basses, Amps and of course lots of pedals!

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gentleclockdivider wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 1:52 pm Is anyone using halyon outside of cubase , if so are there any major cons ?
I use Halion in Reaper, VCV, Cubase, Bitwig, Flstudio and Reason. I am yet to see any cons from how I work. I have Kontakt, Falcon, Msoundfactory and most samplers and find Halion 7 the best out of all of them for what I need, but I guess it's down to how you work and workflow that works the best for you. I love building instruments in Halion as it has such a great featureset. I find it a very well thought out and built sampler.

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SLiC wrote: Thu Jul 11, 2024 3:55 am
IvyBirds wrote: Thu Jul 11, 2024 3:13 am
SLiC wrote: Thu Jul 11, 2024 2:47 am It isn't good enough for a flagship synth like HALion to not have MPE in 2024....Steiny have been really slow to the party on this...
It does support it. Steinberg is not slow to the party on this, they developed Note Expression as part of the VST3 spec and as such utilize it perfectly

The other DAW developers are the ones slow to the party on this

What's amazing is for all the people who think MPE is so important and who incorrectly complain about HALion7 and other software not supporting it, using Cubase should be a no brainer as the best scenario for MPE is at DAW level since it's your DAW that makes and records sequences and manages all your incoming MIDI from external sources

So if using MPE is REALLY important to you, you are already a Cubase user anyway
I guess if HALion is only fully functional in Cubase then Steinberg should really make that clear in their marketing...

For playing MPE I have an Osmose and PUSH 3 SA.. Pretty much all DAWS (I own most of them, I diched Cubase around V9) record and edit MPE, so is HALion is MPE?- if I play it with my Osmose will it play Poly AT/MPE in any DAW/standalone?

Falcon is compatible with MPE controllers in any DAW with built in MPE mapping support and MPE factory presets...I guess this is what I was hoping for in HALion.
MPE and note expressionare often cobbled together, because MPE can be encapsualated in the latter. Truth is though, they are different things. One is a midi spec, the other is part of VST3.
Halion has no mpe support, yet.

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And don´t forget that MPE is essential for expressive, real-time live performances, and Cubase is notoriously ill-suited for this purpose.

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SLiC wrote: Thu Jul 11, 2024 3:55 am
IvyBirds wrote: Thu Jul 11, 2024 3:13 am
SLiC wrote: Thu Jul 11, 2024 2:47 am It isn't good enough for a flagship synth like HALion to not have MPE in 2024....Steiny have been really slow to the party on this...
It does support it. Steinberg is not slow to the party on this, they developed Note Expression as part of the VST3 spec and as such utilize it perfectly

The other DAW developers are the ones slow to the party on this

What's amazing is for all the people who think MPE is so important and who incorrectly complain about HALion7 and other software not supporting it, using Cubase should be a no brainer as the best scenario for MPE is at DAW level since it's your DAW that makes and records sequences and manages all your incoming MIDI from external sources

So if using MPE is REALLY important to you, you are already a Cubase user anyway
I guess if HALion is only fully functional in Cubase then Steinberg should really make that clear in their marketing...
Halion7 is fully functional in any DAW. I will say it again HALion7 is fully functional in any DAW

Unlike Falcon (which I also own) which doesn't support VST3 Polyphonic Note Expression, HALion7 does

The things you can Note Expressions blow away basic MPE, and if you want MPE support to be fully functional and realized you are already using a DAW that supports Note Expressions like Cubase

At it’s heart all MPE is just basic MIDI, Pitchbend and CC data per-MIDI-channel, each note is on a unique MIDI channel (2-16 going by the spec, with channel 1 being ‘global’). Note Expression can be set to control any CC, so there we go.

Since MPE is just basic MIDI data you are limited to values of 0-127. VST note expressions allow for a value range that exceeds the MIDI range of 0 to 127.

Quote simply basic and crude MPE as used in Falcon is a giant step backwards over what VST Note Expressions can do. You can use MPE controllers in Cubase to do basic MPE things , but you can do all kinds of things beyond that with much higher resolution with Note Expressions and you don't need an MPE controller to use them, while it certainly is a joy to do so a mouse is really all you need

I can't imagine not having Polyphonic Note Expressions at this point, it would be crippling

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