Kilohearts Plug-ins (My Misunderstanding)

[mothra]

Do people even make music anymore? Or do you hit some weird 'anomaly' in your project like this and then spend the next two weeks looking at numbers and yelling on KvR/GS instead of just turning something down and finishing your work?

[limitlesssss]

Have you tried +/-6 dB instead of +/-3 dB as well?

Yes, I tried -/+6dB, I tried -/+24dB as well.

Have you tried fine-tuning the gain setting to rule out controller offsets?

Yes, I did try to fine tune it as accurately as it let me. But it only let's you fine-tune to forth decimal place. I did -/+6.02059dB which rounds to 6.0206dB.

[EDIT] I also fine-tuned REAPER's fader to -/+6.02059991327dB.

That's what my first thought was after reading that you can perfectly null in other ways - which shouldn't be possible if there was really something wrong with the plugin.

But you can't perfectly null using Kilohearts plug-ins, is my point of this thread.

[limitlesssss]

Do people even make music anymore? Or do you hit some weird 'anomaly' in your project like this and then spend the next two weeks looking at numbers and yelling on KvR/GS instead of just turning something down and finishing your work?

You finish your music, let me worry about “anomalies”. Deal?

[limitlesssss]

It's worth mentioning that if Schwa's Bitter works anything like Reaper's Bit Meter (which is a reasonable assumption since they were probably both made by the same guy) then it's actually trying to represent a 64 bit floating-point value as a 64 bit fixed-point value which I'm not sure is 100% accurate for the lowest few bits. Also it takes the absolute value so that's at least one bit in the bin.

The point is, if you completely ignore Schwa's Bitter and REAPER's Bit Meter, and just render the result of the null, and increase the gain, you'll eventually see/hear the floor. I showed you even *one* Kilohearts Gain plug-in *doing nothing*, raises the noise floor to -150dBFS. How do I know? Increase the gain until the null render almost clips.

If the null was perfect, no matter how many thousands of dB you might raise the gain of the null render, you'll see/hear nothing, because there is nothing to raise. Does that make sense now?

[Igro]

Some reactions to the topic, but slightly altered:

"Please go to 6, 3 or even 1 bit to save cpu and ram, thanks kilohearts. Music wont suffer from that"


But the OP has the point. I'm all for better quality. And while this one is not so obvious, in some situations it might be.


Even though FL-Studio won't gain from that. It's the only 32 bit FP DAW in the market. And they never go 64bit FP anyway.

[gruberman]

Do people actively search for miniscule things to complain about?

[WackyZoundz]

But it only let's you fine-tune to forth decimal place.

Then this seems to be the issue. A simple controller offset which is something many plugins suffer from. Not great either.

[WackyZoundz]

I understand your point of view. I struggled for years to get my mixes to sound good until I realized that many of the plugins I used were broken, resulting in lots of noise, aliasing, warped frequency responses - all the things that make many people say "Digital sounds bad" (and rightfully so). Now I also test all plugins and throw away everything that introduces issues.

[limitlesssss]

But it only let's you fine-tune to forth decimal place.

Then this seems to be the issue. A simple controller offset which is something many plugins suffer from. Not great either.

As I said before, even when you just insert a Kilohearts Gain plug-in without touching it, it'll introduce noise.

You can do the following if you have REAPER:

Like the original post, you can do the following:
• Go to Project Settings > Advanced and make sure the mixing bit depth is at 64-Bit FP.
• Also make sure everything in Project Settings > Media is at 64-Bit FP.
• Insert Schwa's Bitter or REAPER's Bit Meter on the Master Bus.
• Also insert JS: Frequency Spectrum Analyzer Meter on the Master Bus as well and change its floor to -450dB.
• Create a new track.
• Insert JS: Tone Generator plug-in and then right click on the track and Render to Mono.
• Duplicate the track.
• Flip the polarity on the second track. You'll see that Schwa's Bitter and Bit Meter show nothing. And nothing on the spectrum analyzer.
• NOW insert Kilohearts Gain on one of the tracks without changing its setting (leave its gain untouched.)
• Now if you press play you'll see the noise.
• If you render the result and boost it +150dB you'll also hear it.

As a matter of fact, I just did it again a few seconds ago for you:

This is the null result of Kilohearts Gain plug-in at 0dB (not even touched, just inserted on one of the identical tracks with polarity flipped). The first 3 seconds is the original signal, the following 3 seconds is the null result (boosted +150dB).

https://gearspace.com/board/attachments ... -150db.mp3

[WackyZoundz]

If there is a controller offset then it affects a setting of -0 dBFS as well.

[limitlesssss]

What controller offset are you talking about? Please let me know so I can check, thank you.

[limitlesssss]

It appears, it's also frequency dependent: This is a sine wave at two frequencies. The first three seconds is at 1000Hz, the next three seconds is at 977Hz. It was duplicated on a second track, the polarity of the second track was flipped, and Kilohearts Gain plug-in was inserted on the second track without being touched (at 0dB). The null result is boosted +150dB.

https://gearspace.com/board/attachments ... -977hz.mp3

https://gearspace.com/board/attachments ... 150db-.mp3

[Lbdunequest]

Just send a support email if this bothers you

i personaly dont care at all about such tiny detail, PhasePlant sounds frikin awesome and it sounds much better then plugins that support 64 bit floating point anyways.

Again, just send an email to support instead of writing things here since its not a KHS forum, but KVR, im sure you will get the response faster

[limitlesssss]

Just send a support email if this bothers you

i personaly dont care at all about such tiny detail, PhasePlant sounds frikin awesome and it sounds much better then plugins that support 64 bit floating point anyways.

Again, just send an email to support instead of writing things here since its not a KHS forum, but KVR, im sure you will get the response faster

As a matter of fact I did, and they told me the developers are on vacation and that they'll forward my email to them. Thank you for your suggestion. I hope this thread doesn't bother you.

And I agree, I *LOVE* Kilohearts plug-ins. I'm trying to make them my main plug-ins. That's why you see the obsession here.

[Lbdunequest]

Just send a support email if this bothers you

i personaly dont care at all about such tiny detail, PhasePlant sounds frikin awesome and it sounds much better then plugins that support 64 bit floating point anyways.

Again, just send an email to support instead of writing things here since its not a KHS forum, but KVR, im sure you will get the response faster

As a matter of fact I did, and they told me the developers are on vacation and that they'll forward my email to them. Thank you for your suggestion. I hope this thread doesn't bother you.

And I agree, I *LOVE* Kilohearts plug-ins. I'm trying to make them my main plug-ins. That's why you see the obsession here.

ah well, good you have this obsession, but i dont think adressing this in forum will benefit that much since really your "problem" with synth is your "problem" which is so miniscule i doubt anyone cares not inteding to put you down or anything, but be rational does anyone care about such tiny thing except you and MAYBE Kilohearts? i see your "problem" same way as trying to save 1 ant from falling boeing 747 if your problem so called will be fixed i wount hear it, no one will hear it not feel it musically

id rather see Kilohearts put its resources (work hours, man power which requires money) to something more useful