Modern P-90s sound more tame to me. Or is it just me?

[Uncle E]

I wind pickups. I can tell you that there's a difference in sound between 53 gauge poly coated wire and 52 gauge plain enamel. I can also tell you that there's a big difference between the sounds of different magnets. The nice thing about that last point is you don't have to take my word for it, you can buy the magnets for a few bucks on eBay and change them in your own humbuckers and P-90's yourself. You'll hear the difference.

[Naillerz78]

I wind pickups. I can tell you that there's a difference in sound between 53 gauge poly coated wire and 52 gauge plain enamel. I can also tell you that there's a big difference between the sounds of different magnets. The nice thing about that last point is you don't have to take my word for it, you can buy the magnets for a few bucks on eBay and change them in your own humbuckers and P-90's yourself. You'll hear the difference.

Yes I know there is a difference in sound produced by construction materials of magnet type and wire gauge. So how would you describe the difference btw I’d like to know.

I’ve swapped / modded heaps of different pickups types personally over 25 years and about 30-40 guitars I’d estimate I’ve modded. I used to enjoy doing it but not anymore as I think it’s mostly pointless now.

Just sayin pickups makers have added a LOT of mayo to sell their wares over the years as to how far changing magnets and wire turns can give certain results or possess certain qualities.

Here’s my favourite of the bunch for pure nonsense ;
https://www.seymourduncan.com/single-pr ... -humbucker

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

Here’s my favourite of the bunch for pure nonsense ;
https://www.seymourduncan.com/single-pr ... -humbucker

What part? This?

"The recipe for this pickup set begins with a rough cast alnico 5 magnet, plain enamel wire, and Seymour’s unique winding pattern. The bridge is a vintage-hot 8.78k DC resistance and the neck is similarly beefy at 8.20k. The rough cast magnets add warmth and balance so everything sounds bigger. What is sonically unique about the Whole Lotta Humbucker pickups is the way that they push your amp and add a very slight natural compression and sustain to your sound."

That doesn't seem at all like nonsense to me. They're telling you the magnet time, wire type, and that they've got some "unique winding pattern" (ok so a machine spits wire around in a coil in a certain way). Then they go into the specs. Other sections of the page have that bass/mid/treble response chart which at least provides some idea as to what you're getting.

I dunno...I don't find any marketing on that page particularly over the top or nonsensical at all. Have you seen the pickups that are getting made using the actual original PAF winding machine and selling for stupid money (talking over $700 per pair)? Those feel much worse to me.

https://www.throbak.com/

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

I have Fralin noiseless P-90s in a chambered Godin with mahogany body/neck, maple top and rosewood fingerboard. They sound fantastic, I think they are standard wind. Plenty of treble bite and good clarity but no harshness or muddiness. Def responsive to volume control and playing dynamics.

Thanks for the mini review. That's exactly what I was hoping to hear. For whatever reason, I just get especially peeved by single coil hum. I've Dimarzio Area's in a Strat and a Tele and those are pretty darn good. Get me what I want. I just put Kinman's in my Jazzmaster and after adjusting to the totally different sound of those, I've really come around on them. Other guitars have humbuckers (SG, Epi Les Paul, 2x WRHB Jazzmaster) so I'm basically down to another Strat with Rocketfire Total 60's pickups (which I don't plan on changing), and the Les Paul Special DC with P90's as my only non-humbucker/non-noise canceling guitars. So that LP Special DC is next up on the new pickup swap block. I think I'll go with the Fralins.

[Naillerz78]

What part? This?

"The recipe for this pickup set begins with a rough cast alnico 5 magnet, plain enamel wire, and Seymour’s unique winding pattern. The bridge is a vintage-hot 8.78k DC resistance and the neck is similarly beefy at 8.20k. The rough cast magnets add warmth and balance so everything sounds bigger. What is sonically unique about the Whole Lotta Humbucker pickups is the way that they push your amp and add a very slight natural compression and sustain to your sound."

That doesn't seem at all like nonsense to me. They're telling you the magnet time, wire type, and that they've got some "unique winding pattern" (ok so a machine spits wire around in a coil in a certain way). Then they go into the specs. Other sections of the page have that bass/mid/treble response chart which at least provides some idea as to what you're getting.

I dunno...I don't find any marketing on that page particularly over the top or nonsensical at all. Have you seen the pickups that are getting made using the actual original PAF winding machine and selling for stupid money (talking over $700 per pair)? Those feel much worse to me.

https://www.throbak.com/

No,this ;

“Seymour’s early 70s London P.A.F. rewind recipe that graced the guitars of some of the most important British artists of the time.”

Plus the name of the Humbucker .
Plus the guy in the video playing something akin to Achilles Last Stand by Led Zeppelin.
Plus the Union Jack flag in the video.

It’s pretty much saying ‘put this pickup in your guitar and you will sound like your guitar hero Jimmy Page - because Seymour Duncan made a pickup in the early 70s that was so good it ‘graced’ jimmys guitar and was involved in Jimmy Page getting his amazing guitar sounds. this pickup will nail that tone.’ Pretty much.
Which is complete bullshit.

It’s all hyperbole with pickups.
This excerpt: “The rough cast magnets add warmth and balance so everything sounds bigger. What is sonically unique about the Whole Lotta Humbucker pickups is the way that they push your amp and add a very slight natural compression and sustain to your sound."

What does “warmth” or “balance” really mean?
They are just words , vague subjective and unquantifiable really.
And why do they somehow make ‘everything sound bigger’ ? And how do “rough cast magnets ‘ do this exactly?
That last sentence re ‘sonic uniqueness’ - ALL Humbuckers push your amp. It’s the nature of a humbucker !
I gotta lol at the “very slight” descriptor .
Very slight natural compression and sustain. So slight you may only slightly hear it .. or you may not, but trust us it’s there.

It’s all just vague words that add mojo but they don’t really make any sense / highly subjective/ vague/ meaningless.

There is no measure of “warmness” in sound. No scale. The same with “balance” . Wtf does that even mean? And what is ‘natural’ compression? Is there ‘artificial’ or ‘unnatural’ compression?
What about organic and gluten free compression maybe.
It’s almost Fortune Teller bullshit this kind of talk.

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

What do you expect them to do, say "don't buy it, it's shite?" It's marketing. You have to accept that marketing buzz is going to be baked into the cake. They're trying to sell stuff after all.

If Seymour Duncan really did rewind one of Jimmy Page's PAF's in the 70s, and this is meant to be a recreation of that, then I really don't get what the problem is.

I dunno. It's probably a good pickup. It's a good price for any PAF clone. And there's some history that lends at least some credibility to it maybe sounding like the Jimmy Page PAF's of the time (whether it does or not I have no idea). Will any decent PAF get you in that ballpark if you're Jimmy Page? Sure will! Does that mean this doesn't? Nope.

Again, still way better than $800 PAF clones because someone bought an old pickup winder at auction.

[Uncle E]

Dimarzio’s descriptions are quite good. Every one I’ve had gave me what they said they would. Cheap, too.

[Naillerz78]

If Seymour Duncan really did rewind one of Jimmy Page's PAF's in the 70s, and this is meant to be a recreation of that, then I really don't get what the problem is.

It’s a possibility he did some work on a pickup once upon a time for Jimmy Page. Maybe.
But he’s cashing in on that fact to sell just another HB pickup. There is no ‘secret recipe’, there is no magic power assigned by a re-wind pattern. I mean would you think 40 years ago SD recorded everything he did while working on that pickup? His ‘recipe’? It was just another re-wind of a broken humbucker he did in his workshop. He’s a charlatan that fella. That model is probably no different to any of his others under the cover a ‘PAF ii’ or whatever. Just a re-name and a story.
$500 AUD for a set of those where I am .

I dunno. It's probably a good pickup. It's a good price for any PAF clone. And there's some history that lends at least some credibility to it maybe sounding like the Jimmy Page PAF's of the time (whether it does or not I have no idea). Will any decent PAF get you in that ballpark if you're Jimmy Page? Sure will! Does that mean this doesn't? Nope.

That’s my point thought. A $50 Gotoh Humbucker will also. It’s not the pickup dude it’s the guitar type+**Amp and speakers**+ fx ( if going for a particular song tone) it’s changing the wrong thing.
Pickups are the least important.

Again, still way better than $800 PAF clones because someone bought an old pickup winder at auction.

Agreed, that IS ludicrous.

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

That’s my point thought. A $50 Gotoh Humbucker will also. It’s not the pickup dude it’s the guitar type+**Amp and speakers**+ fx ( if going for a particular song tone) it’s changing the wrong thing.
Pickups are the least important.

This is where I fundamentally disagree with you. I think pickups are probably the biggest factor on an electric guitar's sound. I've had all kinds of guitars with all kinds of pickups and done pickup "upgrades" on many of them. In my experience, if you were to stick Squier Affinity Strat pickups in a Custom Shop Strat, while the guitar may still play great, it'll sound like ass. Maybe some EQ will help polish the turd, but it's just not the same thing as good pickups. And conversely, if you put great pickups and electronics in an otherwise cheap guitar, it's the LARGEST upgrade you can possibly make. Assuming the thing plays in tune and has a decent setup.

Just my two cents. I think we're just totally of different mindsets here.

[Uncle E]

tbf, $500AUD means there’s a 20% distributor markup. Whole Lotta Humbucker sets are $279 in the US, and while that isn’t cheap, it’s not nearly as expensive as boutique winders.

That said, we now know that Jimmy Page’s most iconic tones were recorded with a stock T-Top (when it wasn’t a Telecaster, that is), anyway.

[Naillerz78]

Other sections of the page have that bass/mid/treble response chart which at least provides some idea as to what you're getting.

Also this ^^^ another example of BS sales nonsense re pickups.
These charts - re B/ M/ T content.
Any humbucker pickup cannot be said to specifically made with any “set “ mix of Bass , Mid or Treble across the board. I’ll try explain my case for this

Take that SD WLH pickup for example.
-Install in a Les Paul =it has a certain mix B/M/T.
-Now Install in an SG = it has different mix ( tighter /less bass, more midrange, more “snarl” )
-Now install in ES335 =another mix. ( less bass more highs likely)
-Install in a fender scale guitar =different mix again.

See what I mean? Same pickup , yet different mix or characteristics per guitar type. His charts are meaningless unless his charts refer only specifically to X style guitar, Y pounds in weight , Z wood construction etc etc.
which they don’t.

[Naillerz78]

That said, we now know that Jimmy Page’s most iconic tones were recorded with a stock T-Top (when it wasn’t a Telecaster, that is), anyway.

This ^^^^^^ a Gibson T-top humbucker

Also here in a dicussion , Pages recent book is mentioned where he states his original LP pickup failed in early 70s … but it was repaired by Dan Armstrong not Seymour Duncan. (Unless SD was an apprentice for Armstrong).

https://forums.ledzeppelin.com/topic/27 ... e-pickups/

“Per the new Jimmy Page book, the pickup lost some of it's output during the 72 Australian Shows. (Still played the guitar for those shows) When he got back he had Dan Armstrong fix it. He doesn't say it was replaced.”

I reckon Duncan is talking out of his ass to sell basically his ‘59 humbucker with a new name. “secret recipe” my ass ..lol

[Naillerz78]

Double post

[Naillerz78]

This is where I fundamentally disagree with you. I think pickups are probably the biggest factor on an electric guitar's sound. I've had all kinds of guitars with all kinds of pickups and done pickup "upgrades" on many of them. In my experience, if you were to stick Squier Affinity Strat pickups in a Custom Shop Strat, while the guitar may still play great, it'll sound like ass. Maybe some EQ will help polish the turd, but it's just not the same thing as good pickups. And conversely, if you put great pickups and electronics in an otherwise cheap guitar, it's the LARGEST upgrade you can possibly make. Assuming the thing plays in tune and has a decent setup.

Just my two cents. I think we're just totally of different mindsets here.

We can agree on one thing - putting cheap noisy ceramic squier p/u’s in a CS strat will degrade the sound significantly . 100%

Now the Inverse, say CS pu’s in a bullet /affinity strat or similar .. these have been most of my experiments also.
IME - the result of this is akin to putting a “magnifying glass” over the cheapness of the guitar. After pickup upgrade, and initial happiness with new improved tonez, I soon start noticing other issues w guitar I didn’t hear before. e.g. Tinny high end, fret buzz maybe, the action of the guitar due to the neck shape or relief etc. maybe a bowed neck. the other issues related to most cheap guitars. Cos I wasn’t looking for them when it was stock and cheap. This generally leads to upgrading other HW or electronics (switch & 3 pots +output jack perhaps)

Almost every time I’ve done this type of upgrade I’ve ended up put the original shit pickups back in again and selling the cheap guitar.

I see it as false economy now.
Buying a $200-$300 guitar and adding $300-$400 in better pickups pots and switches. Plus all the labour hours involved. When you can take that money $600-$700 and just buy a 2nd hand Fender Mexican strat or perhaps even American Strat for that money or other better quality guitar , from the get go. You get a better guitar top-to-tail then.

Esp with cheap strats.
Teles I’ve had better results but similar effect re the issues with cheap teles. Or it turns into something that is not really a Tele. Which is a different story.

[lfm]

Also this ^^^ another example of BS sales nonsense re pickups.
These charts - re B/ M/ T content.
Any humbucker pickup cannot be said to specifically made with any “set “ mix of Bass , Mid or Treble across the board. I’ll try explain my case for this

See what I mean? Same pickup , yet different mix or characteristics per guitar type. His charts are meaningless unless his charts refer only specifically to X style guitar, Y pounds in weight , Z wood construction etc etc.
which they don’t.

See the charts as inducing a sine sweep, like you do in frequency response specs for an amp or speaker or something.
- what will it be as response curve

Certain type of music will sound crap because your bringing more of something not wanted.
- you listen to classical music you want more flat response
- if you do pop music or rock you want bass boost for one

So what do you want more of in your particular guitar?

Charts for pickups will not tell what it will do to your specific guitar compared to stock pickups.
- would be convenient if it did, but not that simple

But if you compare your stock pickups characteristics with the new pups you can tell what you will bring more of, if you had charts for both.

I had my first strat 3 years ago, and not so familiar with choosing SC pups.

But Gibson, SD and DiMarzio have charts for their pickups.